Author Topic: PAB and HG and Outpost  (Read 5015 times)

Offline Alex_Olijar

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PAB and HG and Outpost
« on: April 17, 2011, 02:45:52 PM »
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I use Outpost to get Armorbearer while Holy Grail is active. Can i block before the convert happens?

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 02:48:21 PM »
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Nope.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 02:51:18 PM »
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We need a Philistine Demon.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 03:00:07 PM »
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Or just use Temple of Dagon and have Altar of Dagon active.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 03:04:02 PM »
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Or just use Temple of Dagon and have Altar of Dagon active.

This takes up two card slots in your deck. One of the advantages of using Philistines is that you can get away with a smaller defense.
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 06:12:52 PM »
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Last I knew, Holy Grail cannot convert during the battle phase, so it cannot target an Armorbearer searched out with Outpost. I would think you could block with it, then....

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 06:13:58 PM »
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Holy Grail can convert during the battle phase - It simply can't target the EC in battle.
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 06:18:11 PM »
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What part of Holy Grail makes it a trigger and not a "use when you activate it"?

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 06:23:35 PM »
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The once per turn part.
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2011, 06:25:15 PM »
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Seems more like clarifying text to me....

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 06:27:44 PM »
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Seems more like we didn't know how to word cards in Warriors - Read the Errata'd version of the ability and it makes a lot more sense.
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 06:30:19 PM »
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Seems more like we didn't know how to word cards in Warriors - Read the Errata'd version of the ability and it makes a lot more sense.
I WAS reading the errata. ;)

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 06:32:29 PM »
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Then I'm not really sure why you think it would be clarifying text as we typically don't use those in Errata's.

'Once per turn, you may convert'

The once per turn implies at any point during said turn. I'll go searching for the old Holy Grail thread, Gabe explains it pretty well if I recall correctly.
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 06:35:19 PM »
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The once per turn implies at any point during said turn.
That's the part I'm arguing. I don't read the understood "anytime" before "once per turn" that you seem to be. When I read it, I see "once per turn" as more about how many of the 2 conversions per game you can do in any given turn ("one"). Am I missing somewhere in the rules where it says "once per turn" describes when and not just how many?

High Priest Annas says "once per game" but you don't get to choose when you can use his ability during a battle. You have to choose whether to use it when he enters battle/activates. Why is Holy Grail different?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 06:37:39 PM by browarod »

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2011, 06:38:01 PM »
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I don't think your missing anything in the rules, since I don't think that's a written rule anyway, more of an understood unwritten type deal.

I do find it interesting that you have an issue with it now though, considering you asked this identical question last year and had it answered the same way.
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2011, 06:45:37 PM »
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Did I? I honestly don't remember that. Why does it matter if I accepted it before? That doesn't invalidate my arguments in the present.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2011, 06:55:01 PM »
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I'm not sure it does matter ;) I was just pointing out that I found it interesting.

Here are the threads that I can find on it. I thought that there was one with a really good explanation for why it works the way it does, but all I could find were the questioning ones.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15238.0

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19469.0 (This is where you asked it)

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=13950.0

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19790.0
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TheHobbit13

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2011, 06:58:06 PM »
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Where is the line between artifacts that activate and take affect only when they activate or artifacts that are "on going"? What wording or rule prevents a player from using I am creator just like and artifact like HG? I am Justice works as a response why isn't I am creator. I know that the iac was ruled to be a singular activation and only at the start of your turn, I would just like to know the reasoning behind the rule. It seems like an appropriate time to do just that.

I am Creator
If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. •  (sounds an awful lot like HG)

I Am Justice (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Evil Character discards your Hero this battle, you may discard that Evil Character at the end of the turn. Limit two discards per game.

Holy Grail
Once per turn holder may convert a human Evil Character in a territory to a Hero in brigade of Holder's choice. Holder is limited to two such conversions per game




Offline Gabe

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2011, 07:01:35 PM »
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I asked about this a while back, before I was an elder.  I believe SirNobody provided an explanation at that time.  It went something like this:

Holy Grail says "you may" making the ability optional so you can use it anytime you want.  It's similar to Unholy Writ, "you may capture a human Hero in battle".  You can use UW anytime during battle because it's a may ability.
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2011, 07:10:51 PM »
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I thought artifacts that referred to conditions needing to be met in battle were an exception as a separate rule? (Writ/Go into Captivity/Silver Trumpets/etc.)

Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2011, 08:53:45 PM »
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High Priest Annas says "once per game" but you don't get to choose when you can use his ability during a battle. You have to choose whether to use it when he enters battle/activates. Why is Holy Grail different?
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2011, 09:00:57 PM »
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Because Holy Grail is an artifact, and the rules for Artifacts are different than they are for Characters, whose abilities, regardless of whether they're once per game, must be used immediately upon entering battle. (unless stated otherwise, but I think only like two characters have those)
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browarod

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2011, 09:04:06 PM »
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whose abilities, regardless of whether they're once per game, must be used immediately upon entering battle. (unless stated otherwise...)
Replace the bold with "activation" and that sure sounds like the rules for artifacts to me....

Offline Master Q

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2011, 10:11:08 PM »
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So Women at the Well w/ Holy Grail up will convert ECs she searches for, provided you didn't use it yet that turn? I thought this answer was a no ???
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Offline Gabe

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Re: PAB and HG and Outpost
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2011, 11:49:12 PM »
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The answer to that is, yes.  It was a fairly common combo used last year.
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