Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Alex_Olijar on April 17, 2011, 02:45:52 PM
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I use Outpost to get Armorbearer while Holy Grail is active. Can i block before the convert happens?
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Nope.
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We need a Philistine Demon.
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Or just use Temple of Dagon and have Altar of Dagon active.
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Or just use Temple of Dagon and have Altar of Dagon active.
This takes up two card slots in your deck. One of the advantages of using Philistines is that you can get away with a smaller defense.
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Last I knew, Holy Grail cannot convert during the battle phase, so it cannot target an Armorbearer searched out with Outpost. I would think you could block with it, then....
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Holy Grail can convert during the battle phase - It simply can't target the EC in battle.
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What part of Holy Grail makes it a trigger and not a "use when you activate it"?
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The once per turn part.
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Seems more like clarifying text to me....
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Seems more like we didn't know how to word cards in Warriors - Read the Errata'd version of the ability and it makes a lot more sense.
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Seems more like we didn't know how to word cards in Warriors - Read the Errata'd version of the ability and it makes a lot more sense.
I WAS reading the errata. ;)
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Then I'm not really sure why you think it would be clarifying text as we typically don't use those in Errata's.
'Once per turn, you may convert'
The once per turn implies at any point during said turn. I'll go searching for the old Holy Grail thread, Gabe explains it pretty well if I recall correctly.
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The once per turn implies at any point during said turn.
That's the part I'm arguing. I don't read the understood "anytime" before "once per turn" that you seem to be. When I read it, I see "once per turn" as more about how many of the 2 conversions per game you can do in any given turn ("one"). Am I missing somewhere in the rules where it says "once per turn" describes when and not just how many?
High Priest Annas says "once per game" but you don't get to choose when you can use his ability during a battle. You have to choose whether to use it when he enters battle/activates. Why is Holy Grail different?
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I don't think your missing anything in the rules, since I don't think that's a written rule anyway, more of an understood unwritten type deal.
I do find it interesting that you have an issue with it now though, considering you asked this identical question last year and had it answered the same way.
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Did I? I honestly don't remember that. Why does it matter if I accepted it before? That doesn't invalidate my arguments in the present.
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I'm not sure it does matter ;) I was just pointing out that I found it interesting.
Here are the threads that I can find on it. I thought that there was one with a really good explanation for why it works the way it does, but all I could find were the questioning ones.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15238.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15238.0)
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19469.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19469.0) (This is where you asked it)
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=13950.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=13950.0)
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19790.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19790.0)
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Where is the line between artifacts that activate and take affect only when they activate or artifacts that are "on going"? What wording or rule prevents a player from using I am creator just like and artifact like HG? I am Justice works as a response why isn't I am creator. I know that the iac was ruled to be a singular activation and only at the start of your turn, I would just like to know the reasoning behind the rule. It seems like an appropriate time to do just that.
I am Creator
If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • (sounds an awful lot like HG)
I Am Justice (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Evil Character discards your Hero this battle, you may discard that Evil Character at the end of the turn. Limit two discards per game.
Holy Grail
Once per turn holder may convert a human Evil Character in a territory to a Hero in brigade of Holder's choice. Holder is limited to two such conversions per game
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I asked about this a while back, before I was an elder. I believe SirNobody provided an explanation at that time. It went something like this:
Holy Grail says "you may" making the ability optional so you can use it anytime you want. It's similar to Unholy Writ, "you may capture a human Hero in battle". You can use UW anytime during battle because it's a may ability.
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I thought artifacts that referred to conditions needing to be met in battle were an exception as a separate rule? (Writ/Go into Captivity/Silver Trumpets/etc.)
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High Priest Annas says "once per game" but you don't get to choose when you can use his ability during a battle. You have to choose whether to use it when he enters battle/activates. Why is Holy Grail different?
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Because Holy Grail is an artifact, and the rules for Artifacts are different than they are for Characters, whose abilities, regardless of whether they're once per game, must be used immediately upon entering battle. (unless stated otherwise, but I think only like two characters have those)
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whose abilities, regardless of whether they're once per game, must be used immediately upon entering battle. (unless stated otherwise...)
Replace the bold with "activation" and that sure sounds like the rules for artifacts to me....
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So Women at the Well w/ Holy Grail up will convert ECs she searches for, provided you didn't use it yet that turn? I thought this answer was a no ???
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The answer to that is, yes. It was a fairly common combo used last year.
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That still doesn't explain why "you may" on an artifact is treated differently than "you may" on any other card.
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That still doesn't explain why "you may" on an artifact is treated differently than "you may" on any other card.
For the same reason artifacts are treated differently than other cards in deck building rules in T2. For the same reason that artifacts can be placed faced down in territory and other cards can't.
It is solely because artifacts are a different type of card than other cards.
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It is solely because artifacts are a different type of card than other cards.
And that magically means they get unintuitive additions to commonplace terms? How exactly am I supposed to explain this to a new player?
"Yes Johnny, Alysha can convert your evil character anytime she wants to as long as it's in territory (even though the card doesn't say that)." "Sorry Johnny, despite having the exact same wording, you cannot draw from Reach of Desperation or band with High Priest Annas anytime you want because they are not artifacts." Highly irregular, extremely unintuitive, and thoroughly inconsistent.
Capture on an artifact means the same as on an enhancement or a character. Convert on an artifact means the same as on an enhancement or a character. All abilities that I can think of work exactly the same way if written on an artifact or an enhancement/character. Why are we making "you may" different?
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New question then. If my opponent uses Woman at the Well to bring forth an EC of mine and a LS, why is it that Holy Grail can convert before I add my EC to the battle? If I announce that I'm adding him to the battle before my opponent announces that they're using Holy Grail, what's the problem?
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It is solely because artifacts are a different type of card than other cards.
And that magically means they get unintuitive additions to commonplace terms?
Apparently so. Although I think by "unintuitive" you mean "unintuitive to you." There are many differences between how artifacts get played compared to other cards. You have, however, learned to view those differences as normal, so they do not appear unintuitive to you. An example is provided below.
How exactly am I supposed to explain this to a new player?
Probably the same way you explain the them that at any time during prep or discard phase, they can place an artifact face down in their territory.
"Yes, Billy, because you have 9 cards in your hand you have to discard one. I know that last turn Jenny was allowed to take her card and put it face down on the table and not discard it, but that is because Jenny's card was an artifact, and yours isn't"
This is an example where artifacts play completely differently, yet you probably don't give it a second thought. I am not certain that the difference in triggering of optional SAs is really that much of an additional hurdle.
Why are we making "you may" different?
Because artifacts are different than character/enhancements, and that is how it has been ruled.
Don't get me wrong, browarod. I am a long time supporter of ruling this in precisely the way you are seeking. (Unfortunately, I believe this may be a case where STAMP and I agree so it has no chance of ever getting changed. ;) ) I am not defending the ruling, but merely telling you what it is.
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I wasn't referring to the game rules of playing artifacts, those are obviously different than other cards (otherwise they wouldn't need their own category) and I'm not disputing them. What I'm questioning is the difference in usage of words/abilities on artifacts compared to the exact same words/abilities on other cards. Characters and enhancements get past their difference in playing to treat the same ability the same way (see the capture/convert example in my previous post), why is "you may" on one artifact being treated differently?
Because artifacts are different than character/enhancements
And characters are different than enhancements, but they don't treat "you may" differently just because of that.
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The SA activation requirements are exactly the same for characters and enhancements.
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The SA activation requirements are exactly the same for characters and enhancements.
Territory-class characters can activate during prep/discard when placed on an enhancement of appropriate color now?
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As you can see in the Interceding question (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=26399.msg414677#msg414677) thread, TC is it's own special niche. Not that we have TC characters.
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Because artifacts are different than character/enhancements
And characters are different than enhancements, but they don't treat "you may" differently just because of that.
I can place dominants, sites, fortresses, characters and artifacts in play from my hand during the prep phase. I cannot (in general) place an enhancement in play from my hand during the prep phase. Does that mean that the rules regarding the playing of enhancements are irregular, unintuitive, and just plain wrong-or does it just mean that the rules for playing enhancements are different than the rules for playing other cards?
Similarly, the rules for activating optional SAs are different for artifacts than they are for other types of cards.
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Again, I'm not arguing the rules for playing/placing cards. Please move past this so the discussion can actually proceed.
I am wondering why the words "you may" are supposed to be interpreted as "you may at anytime during the turn" on Holy Grail, but not any other card in the game. That is what I think is unintuitive and inconsistent. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's like I'm speaking a foreign language to you guys.....
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Don't get me wrong, browarod. I am a long time supporter of ruling this in precisely the way you are seeking. (Unfortunately, I believe this may be a case where STAMP and I agree so it has no chance of ever getting changed. ;) ) I am not defending the ruling, but merely telling you what it is.
While ever so slight, you had a chance until you included those five capital letters that generally translate to "thorn in the flesh" for many here.
;)
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I am wondering why the words "you may" are supposed to be interpreted as "you may at anytime during the turn" on Holy Grail, but not any other card in the game. That is what I think is unintuitive and inconsistent. Nothing more, nothing less.
Character and enhancement SAs are (generally) intended for battle only, whereas artifact SAs are (generally) active for the entire turn (and usually the round). The very intent of artifacts was for them to be available during more than just the Battle Phase. Therefore, it seems more intuitive that their abilities have an impact during more than just the Preparation Phase.
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Character and enhancement SAs are (generally) intended for battle only, whereas artifact SAs are (generally) active for the entire turn (and usually the round). The very intent of artifacts was for them to be available during more than just the Battle Phase. Therefore, it seems more intuitive that their abilities have an impact during more than just the Preparation Phase.
If Holy Grail was an ongoing ability, I'd agree with you. But it's not, conversion is an instant ability. Other artifacts with instant abilities (Stone Pillar at Bethel, I am Holy, etc.) must be used on activation or else you wasted your artifact activation for that turn. I don't see why Holy Grail is an exception just because it says "you may" when that is not what "you may" means on any other card.
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I don't see why Holy Grail is an exception just because it says "you may" when that is not what "you may" means on any other card.
Because Holy Grail isn't any other card. It is an artifact. ;)
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It is an artifact. ;)
So? Nothing in the rules of artifacts says that I should treat "you may" on one to mean anything other than what "you may" means anywhere else.
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Actually, the other examples you provided do. Stone Pillar and I am Holy both say "Upon activation, you may." If the default for "may" in artifacts was only when activated (like characters and enhancements), then there would be no need for the "Upon activation" clause. This would amount to "clarifying text." I would shudder to think that we were still using clarifying text in a Rock of Ages card.
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I would shudder to think that we were still using clarifying text in a Rock of Ages card.
you'd be surprised.
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I Am Creator (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
I do not see an upon activation clause here...and from the sound of it, sounds like its ongoing..why is it considered upon activation?
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It doesn't say "may."
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I Am Creator (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
I do not see an upon activation clause here...and from the sound of it, sounds like its ongoing..why is it considered upon activation?
Yeah I agree, but according to the answer given on this thread it doesn't have you may, therefore it is not optional. *instaposted*
However I would like to say that this game has gotten iunreasonably uber nitpicky on wordings that were arbitrary from the beginning. It seems that most of these kinds of these types of descisions are made in hindsight and not before, therefore I think we should give more leaway for what has to be to do x.
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(Unfortunately, I believe this may be a case where STAMP and I agree so it has no chance of ever getting changed. ;) )
While ever so slight, you had a chance until you included those five capital letters that generally translate to "thorn in the flesh" for many here.
As I have noted on other occasions, I cannot think of a time where you and I have been in agreement on a disputed ruling where our side has prevailed. We are new ruling kryptonite. ;)
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(Unfortunately, I believe this may be a case where STAMP and I agree so it has no chance of ever getting changed. ;) )
While ever so slight, you had a chance until you included those five capital letters that generally translate to "thorn in the flesh" for many here.
As I have noted on other occasions, I cannot think of a time where you and I have been in agreement on a disputed ruling where our side has prevailed. We are new ruling kryptonite. ;)
Can you two firmly agree that a placed enhancement is controlled by the placer?
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Assuming your opponent has no evil characters and territory and you rescue with a generic hero with Holy Grail active. Is there a way to convert their character before it enters battle (in territory) or is the Evil Character added right into battle if played from hand?
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It is added straight to battle.
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Assuming your opponent has no evil characters and territory and you rescue with a generic hero with Holy Grail active. Is there a way to convert their character before it enters battle (in territory) or is the Evil Character added right into battle if played from hand?
From the REG:
Ongoing Special Abilities > Miscellaneous > Default Conditions
• Cards played from your hand can be played directly into battle without passing through your territory.