Author Topic: Omri and Gates (Read 3443 times)

Red Warrior · « **on:** April 10, 2012, 02:39:05 PM »

I attack with... Asher... yeah, that'll work

My opponent blocks with Omri, searches and plays Samaria
Gates of Jerusalem triggers, decreasing Asher below */0
I now have special initiative to negate the ability that is removing me from battle...
Which abilities may I negate under special initiative with Joseph before Pharaoh?

King Omri (Ki)

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Brown • Ability: 6 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search your draw pile for one Samaria Site and put in play. Land Purchase cannot be negated. • Play As: Search your deck for one Samaria Site and place in play. Land Purchase cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, King (Israel), Royalty, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: I Kings 16:23 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)

Gates of Samaria (RA2)

Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect evil Kings of Israel in your territory from opponents. When you play a Samaria Site, increase your evil King of Israel 6/6 to decrease a character 6/6. • Identifiers: None • Verse: II Kings 7:1 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)

Joseph Before Pharaoh (FF2)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 1 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a son of Jacob, negate opponent’s evil or neutral card. If it’s a human, capture it to opponent’s Land of Bondage, otherwise put it beneath deck. • Play As: If used by a son of Jacob, negate opponent’s evil or neutral card. If it’s a human, capture it to opponent’s Land of Bondage, otherwise place it beneath deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 41:14 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)

Praeceps · « **Reply #1 on:** April 10, 2012, 03:50:20 PM »

Smart move? Deck Gates unless you need to create a LS, Omri's useless without it. But you can negate either Gates to stop to stop the discard, or Omri to negate the search which resulted in the discard.

Red Wing · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2012, 03:56:41 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on April 10, 2012, 03:50:20 PM

Smart move? Deck Gates unless you need to create a LS, Omri's useless without it. But you can negate either Gates to stop to stop the discard, or Omri to negate the search which resulted in the discard.

.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 10, 2012, 04:02:53 PM »

Praceps is actually incorrect. You have to negate Gates, since it's the one doing the removing.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2012, 04:08:29 PM »

That's exactly what I had thought, though I would be glad to be wrong. It seems that you would have to negate THE card causing the removal. Similar to how you would have to negate the removing EE instead of the horses that played it.

Another core question is whether special initiative extends to cards outside of battle (which I presume to be the cause in view of your response. Example: An opponent's Crown of Thorns is up, I block with King Zedekiah (1/1). May I play Crucify Him under special initiate? What if it were my crowns?
(Lazy enough to make an example where two cards were next to each other in the REG? Yes )

Crown of Thorns (Wa)

Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: All Evil Characters in play decrease 0/3 while this card is in play. • Identifiers: None • Verse: John 19:2-3 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Uncommon)

Crucify Him (Ap)

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Brown • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all activated Artifacts in play. The effects of all Artifacts this turn are negated. • Play As: Negate and discard all activated Artifacts in play. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Matthew 27:31 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)

Professoralstad · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2012, 05:07:36 PM »

Interesting question, I would have to rule it as a tentative yes.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2012, 05:29:25 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 10, 2012, 05:07:36 PM

Interesting question, I would have to rule it as a tentative yes.

That sounds good to me too.

Praeceps · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2012, 07:17:06 PM »

As long as you're pulling Zed from hand, otherwise he died in territory.

megamanlan · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2012, 07:37:38 PM »

It's true that u'd have to hit Gates. I asked this at a tournament here before and that was the answer I got.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2012, 10:28:49 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 10, 2012, 05:07:36 PM

Interesting question, I would have to rule it as a tentative yes.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 10, 2012, 05:29:25 PM

That sounds good to me too.

Wait a second, that card says "Discard all activated Artifacts in play. The effects of all Artifacts this turn are negated." Isn't this essentially the same thing as DoN ("Discard one active Artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated."), and therefore could not be played against the discarding effect of the artifact to undo the effect? If DoN can't negate an artifact to stop it from happening, neither should this card, right?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2012, 11:22:18 PM »

Check the Play As.

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2012, 11:27:17 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 10, 2012, 11:22:18 PM

Check the Play As.

Ok, but is that an errata? Prof, you know I'm not a "ignore play-as disguised as errata" guy, that bothers me too. But that does change the meaning of the card. And if "updating the language" on 'discard then negate' results in 'negate and discard', then DoN works differently.

If the wording is the same, the effects cannot be different, unless there is an errata, correct?

EDIT: Just checked, no errata I can find, so my question is unchanged currently.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2012, 11:28:35 PM »

I actually had a similar question to Redoubter. The card's special ability says that it discards the card, then negates all artifacts for the rest of the turn. Wouldn't the artifact be out of play by the time the negate kicks in, or is "negate all artifacts" including artifacts out of play? I don't think we use the play-as, because it's not an errata, and while it serves as a guideline, I was under the impression it shouldn't be used for official rulings.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2012, 11:39:37 PM »

I was just ruling based on the Play As being accurate. If it is not accurate, then I agree that it would be weird to rule Crucify Him differently than Destruction of Nehustan. Again, I'm a bit swamped currently getting some other rulings through the other side, so I'll let someone else run with this one

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2012, 12:46:09 AM »

Until given Errata, Crucify Him Discards all Artifacts, then Negates any that are still in play for one reason or another. You can't just pretend cards have Errata.

Josh · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2012, 10:04:56 AM »

Why don't the negate and discard happen at the same time? They are both in the same special ability. DoN is worded to negate the artifact that is discarded, but Crucify Him simply says "Discard all artifacts. Negate all artifacts." The negate does not target the discarded artifacts like DoN (which, if it did, it would negate them just like DoN does). But they are in the same ability, it's not like the discard completes before Crucify Him completes.

Example to support my view:

If I block with Goliath and my opponent presents Jair as his new hero, does he get to draw 2 CBI? Or is it prevented since Goliath negates draw abilities? The "negate draw ability" comes later in Goliath's ability than the "opponent may present a new hero" part, but isn't Goliath negating draw abilities the whole time?

Redoubter · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2012, 10:53:43 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on April 11, 2012, 10:04:56 AM

But they are in the same ability, it's not like the discard completes before Crucify Him completes.

Actually, it does by the way the card is worded. If a card said for example, "Discard an enhancement. Negate its special ability", then you could not use that card in special initiative to stop the ability of the card. That's just the way Redemption abilities work, and have worked (see the DoN ruling).

Quote from: jmhartz on April 11, 2012, 10:04:56 AM

If I block with Goliath and my opponent presents Jair as his new hero, does he get to draw 2 CBI? Or is it prevented since Goliath negates draw abilities? The "negate draw ability" comes later in Goliath's ability than the "opponent may present a new hero" part, but isn't Goliath negating draw abilities the whole time?

Goliath is already out, and therefore he would prevent Jair's ability. Jair can't be stopped by any card played after him (that's the definition of CBI), but Goliath is already out and would prevent him.

In addition, the definitions for special abilities on characters specify that abilities that add characters to battle or result in different rescuers/blockers activate last no matter what, so that example is not the same situation.

Josh · « **Reply #17 on:** April 11, 2012, 11:41:21 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 11, 2012, 10:53:43 AM

Quote from: jmhartz on April 11, 2012, 10:04:56 AM
But they are in the same ability, it's not like the discard completes before Crucify Him completes.

Actually, it does by the way the card is worded. If a card said for example, "Discard an enhancement. Negate its special ability", then you could not use that card in special initiative to stop the ability of the card. That's just the way Redemption abilities work, and have worked (see the DoN ruling).

The way DoN is worded, it's basically "Discard an artifact TO negate that artifact's ability". If you can't discard, then you can't negate. Hence, the Lampstand ruling.

But that's not how Crucify Him is worded. It says, in layman's terms, "Discard all artifacts. Negate all artifacts." Or, in other words, "Negate and discard all active artifacts." You've already admitted that the order of abilities doesn't matter (except in the case of CTB and banding, which isn't an issue here). So my question is, if a card says "Discard all artifacts. Negate all artifacts.", why doesn't it negate and discard? It's old wording for sure (Apostles), but that shouldn't matter.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #18 on:** April 11, 2012, 11:52:28 AM »

Quote

1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.

2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.

3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.

4. Then, complete banding abilities.

5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.

Source.

The order on the card does matter. In this case, the discard on Crucify Him happens, taking an artifact out of play, at which point, the negate kicks in. Because all abilities default to "in play," and the artifact that was discarded is out of play when the negate kicks in, the artifact that was just discarded is not negated by Crucify Him.

Redoubter · « **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2012, 12:02:45 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on April 11, 2012, 11:41:21 AM

You've already admitted that the order of abilities doesn't matter (except in the case of CTB and banding, which isn't an issue here).

Actually, I didn't at all. What I was saying in response to your example of Goliath is from the definition on how characters activate in battle. It has nothing to do with Crucify Him, or anything besides a character in battle.

And Chronic explained once again why this does not work.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #20 on:** April 11, 2012, 12:21:46 PM »

O yay, look what happens when I randomly post "Crucify Him" for convenience... if I'd used Lying unto God we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation

Back to my original question for just a minute... would the Crown of Thorns being MINE affect my ability to play Lying unto God on my from-hand-EC under special initiate? (Example, player B cannot play "Escape" to retreat his EC after playing "Deceit of Sapphira" since Player B caused the removal...) Does this precedent carry over to cards outside of battle?

Josh · « **Reply #21 on:** April 11, 2012, 12:50:05 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on April 11, 2012, 11:52:28 AM

Quote
1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.

2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.

3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.

4. Then, complete banding abilities.

5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.

Source.

The order on the card does matter. In this case, the discard on Crucify Him happens, taking an artifact out of play, at which point, the negate kicks in. Because all abilities default to "in play," and the artifact that was discarded is out of play when the negate kicks in, the artifact that was just discarded is not negated by Crucify Him.

Quote from: Redoubter on April 11, 2012, 12:02:45 PM

Actually, I didn't at all. What I was saying in response to your example of Goliath is from the definition on how characters activate in battle. It has nothing to do with Crucify Him, or anything besides a character in battle.

And Chronic explained once again why this does not work.

Wow. I was way off on this one. My apologies for arguing about what I did not know. A simple REG check would have set me straight from the start.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #22 on:** April 11, 2012, 01:03:11 PM »

Don't sweat it. I've been much more wrong about rulings before, and I do understand the logic you used - it just happens to be incorrect.

Redoubter · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2012, 01:13:26 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on April 11, 2012, 12:50:05 PM

Wow. I was way off on this one. My apologies for arguing about what I did not know. A simple REG check would have set me straight from the start.

Yeah, as Chronic said, there's nothing wrong about being wrong...except for the being wrong part. I have NO idea what that feels like of course

And to be honest, it's not something you'll find easily in the REG. It is one of those hidden things you have to know exists.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2012, 02:08:33 PM »

Ahem

Quote from: Red Warrior on April 11, 2012, 12:21:46 PM

...Back to my original question for just a minute... would the Crown of Thorns being MINE affect my ability to play Lying unto God on my from-hand-EC under special initiate? (Example, player B cannot play "Escape" to retreat his EC after playing "Deceit of Sapphira" since Player B caused the removal...) Does this precedent carry over to cards outside of battle?

News:

Author Topic: Omri and Gates (Read 3443 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy