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Just to be clear, does this officially overturn the various Withdraw Hero + Chariots of Fire/I Am Patience vs DoN rulings that have been made in the past?

It has been ruled (forever, as far as I know) that if I have Chariots/IaP/any other "after rescue" card and I make a rescue with a withdraw character and immediately pull the character out of battle that my opponent has no chance to play DoN to take out Chariot/IaP/whatever because you cannot play dominants during battle resolution and the rescue attempt ended once the hero withdrew.

I'm no official, but my gut is telling me that yes, this does change the rule. Both players have not signaled that the battle is over, but the ONLY thing the blocking player can do at this point is play a dominant, so it is usually assumed at this point that the battle is finished. However, I feel that it would only make sense to allow someone to DoN the CoF/IaP before it activates.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 27, 2009, 01:45:32 AM

Just to be clear, does this officially overturn the various Withdraw Hero + Chariots of Fire/I Am Patience vs DoN rulings that have been made in the past?

It has been ruled (forever, as far as I know) that if I have Chariots/IaP/any other "after rescue" card and I make a rescue with a withdraw character and immediately pull the character out of battle that my opponent has no chance to play DoN to take out Chariot/IaP/whatever because you cannot play dominants during battle resolution and the rescue attempt ended once the hero withdrew.

I'm no official, but my gut is telling me that yes, this does change the rule. Both players have not signaled that the battle is over, but the ONLY thing the blocking player can do at this point is play a dominant, so it is usually assumed at this point that the battle is finished. However, I feel that it would only make sense to allow someone to DoN the CoF/IaP before it activates.

why would the blocking player be able to play a dominant in this situation?

ah. so wouldnt unholy writ also work in this situation as well?

Hey,

Just to be clear, does this officially overturn the various Withdraw Hero + Chariots of Fire/I Am Patience vs DoN rulings that have been made in the past?

It has been ruled (forever, as far as I know) that if I have Chariots/IaP/any other "after rescue" card and I make a rescue with a withdraw character and immediately pull the character out of battle that my opponent has no chance to play DoN to take out Chariot/IaP/whatever because you cannot play dominants during battle resolution and the rescue attempt ended once the hero withdrew.

I was not aware of such a ruling regarding the use of Destruction.  You are correct that I am disagreeing with that ruling.  Destruction could be played on an "after battle" artifact in response to a hero like Spy attacking and withdrawing.

And actually, after reading the rulebook, it seems to me that the blocking player could even present a blocker after a withdraw hero makes a rescue attempt.

The Rulebook says:

4. Battle Phase - Follow these steps in order:
a) You may begin a rescue attempt or battle challenge by
placing a Hero into the Field of Battle. If you make a rescue
attempt or battle challenge, go to step b. Otherwise,
skip to the Discard Phase.
b) Your opponent may block your Hero by placing an Evil
Character into the Field of Battle.

Step b is contingent on placing a hero into the Field of Battle, it doesn't say anything about the hero having to still be in battle at the end of step a.  Bryon, can you give your opinion on this?

Second, do placed enhancements follow the same rule as Warrior's Spear?  Could I, for example, place Obedience of Noah on Ahimaaz, have him enter battle, immediately withdraw, and then choose the blocker (i.e., put an EC into battle) for my opponent?

Yes, placed enhancements, in this case, work the same way as weapons.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The REG actually does have this to say:

Instant Abilities > Withdraw from Battle > How to Use

Withdraw cards can be used to immediately terminate a battle or rescue attempt.  Only cards targeted to withdraw must leave the Field of Battle.  If the withdraw card specifies that only a character withdraws from battle, the enhancements are discarded unless there is another character remaining or immediately replaced in the Field of Battle that can use them.  Cards returned to your hand return to face value and cards returned to your territory retain their abilities.  Other characters in battle not targeted remain in battle.  If a withdrawing character was the only one in battle, the battle ends.   If other characters remain in battle, the battle continues and initiative rules apply.  Withdraw cards can be interrupted if you gain initiative after the withdraw card is played. 

Hey,

ah. so wouldnt unholy writ also work in this situation as well?

You can't use Writ on ET until after he has a chance to use his play an enhancement ability.  Similarly you can't use Writ on Spy until after he has a chance to use his withdraw ability.  And if Spy does withdraw, he's not in battle and thus he's not a valid target for Writ.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The REG actually does have this to say:

Instant Abilities > Withdraw from Battle > How to Use

Withdraw cards can be used to immediately terminate a battle or rescue attempt.  Only cards targeted to withdraw must leave the Field of Battle.  If the withdraw card specifies that only a character withdraws from battle, the enhancements are discarded unless there is another character remaining or immediately replaced in the Field of Battle that can use them.  Cards returned to your hand return to face value and cards returned to your territory retain their abilities.  Other characters in battle not targeted remain in battle.  If a withdrawing character was the only one in battle, the battle ends.   If other characters remain in battle, the battle continues and initiative rules apply.  Withdraw cards can be interrupted if you gain initiative after the withdraw card is played. 

That is very interesting... so killing a hero in battle doesnt end the battle instantly, but withdrawing does?

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 27, 2009, 01:45:32 AM

Just to be clear, does this officially overturn the various Withdraw Hero + Chariots of Fire/I Am Patience vs DoN rulings that have been made in the past?

I was not aware of such a ruling regarding the use of Destruction.  You are correct that I am disagreeing with that ruling.

I distinctly remember you personally explaining this to me when I was grumbling about the ruling after I got burned by it in a game. (You weren't my opponent in the game, you were merely the person I was pointed to ask an explanation of the ruling afterwords.)

Destruction could be played on an "after battle" artifact in response to a hero like Spy attacking and withdrawing.

Excellent.

And actually, after reading the rulebook, it seems to me that the blocking player could even present a blocker after a withdraw hero makes a rescue attempt.

I was originally going to ask about this, but I figured everyone would think I was crazy.  The ability to play an EC with impunity after the hero has withdrawn would be a good counterbalance to the new use of Warrior's Spear. It would also open some creative ambiguity into the decision on whether or not to bring a hero into battle simply to withdraw,

Quote

Second, do placed enhancements follow the same rule as Warrior's Spear?

Yes, placed enhancements, in this case, work the same way as weapons.

Excellent.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on December 27, 2009, 07:28:53 PM

[Difference between withdraw and ITB question deleted.]

The key is the interrupt.  If you interrupt an ability, when the interrupt ends, you check to make sure the interrupted abilities still can activate, and if they can't then they don't.  That's part of the "definition" of an interrupt.

At some point on a visit to the TC I need you to explain the whole concept of "interrupt" to me. I always thought--per the REG definition--that interrupt interrupted the special ability of the card and not the activation of the special ability, I don't get from the formal definition of either interrupt or interrupt the battle where there is an activation recheck.

Especially interesting considering return to hand abilities are now considered withdraw abilities.

Not so interesting since the return to hand SA was probably played by another character in battle, so the "battle ends" condition would not be triggered.

Where have we used the phrase "battle ends?" 

The phrase shows up in the REG quote I listed above. My query is why Warrior's Spear works on a withdrawn character when the "battle ends," but it doesn't work in a banding chain when a "battle immediately ends" card is played.

That is contradictory.