Author Topic: Odd Negate question (Read 9928 times)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #25 on:** June 22, 2010, 01:20:29 AM »

Based on the wording of Given over to Egypt, I doubt it works like that.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #26 on:** June 22, 2010, 02:15:06 AM »

Would you say that in Multiplayer, the presence of JT for any of the players would stop Given Over to Egypt for all of the players?

Michael_of_the_Star · « **Reply #27 on:** June 22, 2010, 02:44:25 AM »

If all the player is being targeted is you and your partner, then yes, JT protects the decks from having the top card being discarded. The fortress is saying protect "holder" deck from discard, the holder is the entire team, so the curse would not affect any of you.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #28 on:** June 22, 2010, 03:23:32 AM »

Quote from: Michael_of_the_Star on June 22, 2010, 02:44:25 AM

If all the player is being targeted is you and your partner, then yes, JT protects the decks from having the top card being discarded. The fortress is saying protect "holder" deck from discard, the holder is the entire team, so the curse would not affect any of you.

Multi player not TEAMS

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #29 on:** June 22, 2010, 09:12:58 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 22, 2010, 02:15:06 AM

Would you say that in Multiplayer, the presence of JT for any of the players would stop Given Over to Egypt for all of the players?

I would say yes. It prevents the card from activating against ANYONE, since it hits everyone's deck at the exact same time. It cant be prevented and not prevented in the same instant. You were treating J tower as a protect, which would shield the holder of J Tower. Prevents/negates don't do that however. As I said before, If one player prevents Wrath of Satan, then it can't activate during that phase, period.

IF it were phrased so that it discarded the top card of the current players turn, then I would agree with you. However, it does not.

My original question still stands then, can you prevent half of a one-sentence ability? I really do not think you can or should.

*EDIT*

However, if you wanted to be evil, you could have both J Tower AND Given Over to Egypt in your territory and it would still work, assuming nobody else has J Tower. It'd work because GOtE does not target the owners deck.

Michael_of_the_Star · « **Reply #30 on:** June 22, 2010, 10:22:30 PM »

That is a different between "protect" and "prevent", what Jerusalem Tower's affect is a protect ability although it said "prevent opponent from discard", "prevent opponent from discard" is a protect ability, because it is targeting opponent, therefore, opponent cannot discard cards from that draw pile. In the other hand, if JT say "prevent opponent's Evil character from discarding holder's cards from the deck, than that is a preventing deck, and so if the evil character say discard cannot be negated, it will work. The current ability with JT is preventing opponent, from discarding cards of holder's deck, therefore is a protect deck. Hopefully, this is clear up.

ML.

Isildur · « **Reply #31 on:** June 22, 2010, 10:27:51 PM »

You know what you guys just need to play Climb the Walls before you do anything

Makes life alot easier

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #32 on:** June 22, 2010, 10:28:08 PM »

No, it prevents opponents cards. This is why Oppressed and Robbed bypasses JTower, because it grants those cards CBN status, so J Tower cannot prevent them. If J Tower was a protect, O&R would not work against it.

J Tower does not protect, it prevents. This is how I have always heard it ruled.

I vote J Tower receives another play as:
"Prevent all cards used by opponents that remove cards from holder's deck. (the clarifying text is the same)"

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #33 on:** June 23, 2010, 12:34:07 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 22, 2010, 10:28:08 PM

No, it prevents opponents cards.

But it doesn't say that. It says that it stops opponent's from taking card out of holder's draw pile. It doesn't say that it stops opponents from taking cards out of anyone else's draw pile.

So basically J-Tower is more like a protect than a prevent.

Isildur · « **Reply #34 on:** June 23, 2010, 12:39:30 AM »

Quote

So basically J-Tower is more like a protect than a prevent.

That is how it should be played but right now as the "play as" is worded it says that it would prevent any card trying to hit your draw pile which means Given Over would be prevented.

Imo the "play as" needs to be changed either that or keep it this way I always did think it was op'd that Given Over hit all draw piles in Multi :p

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #35 on:** June 23, 2010, 09:48:07 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 23, 2010, 12:34:07 AM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 22, 2010, 10:28:08 PM
No, it prevents opponents cards.
But it doesn't say that. It says that it stops opponent's from taking card out of holder's draw pile. It doesn't say that it stops opponents from taking cards out of anyone else's draw pile.

So basically J-Tower is more like a protect than a prevent.

So then the card that is DESIGNED to bypass J Tower (Oppressed and Robbed) now does nothing? I know for a fact I've seen rulings say that CBN abilities bypass J Tower, because J Tower is a prevent, not a protect.

Can all the elders get together and finally decide if this card is a protect or a prevent? It can't be worded as one and function as another. Whichever ability it ends up being, can we possibly re-word the card to say either:

1) Protect cards in your draw pile from being removed by opponents. Draw pile may still be searched, revealed, and/or shuffled.

2) Prevent all cards used by opponents that remove cards from your draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched, revealed, and/or shuffled.

Master KChief · « **Reply #36 on:** June 23, 2010, 09:51:54 AM »

jtower is a prevent. oppressed and robbed is not stopped by jtower. what is the fuss here?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #37 on:** June 23, 2010, 10:08:35 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on June 23, 2010, 09:51:54 AM

jtower is a prevent. oppressed and robbed is not stopped by jtower. what is the fuss here?

I agree with this, but people are saying its actually a protect...?

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 23, 2010, 12:34:07 AM

So basically J-Tower is more like a protect than a prevent.

If J Tower is treated as a protect rather than a prevent, then O&R became just about useless.

Master KChief · « **Reply #38 on:** June 23, 2010, 10:15:29 AM »

what its 'more like' doesnt negate the current REG listing. its listed as a prevent. o&r is a cannot be negated. o&r cannot be stopped by jtower.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #39 on:** June 23, 2010, 10:20:13 AM »

Again, I agree thats how it should be, but an elder just said its more like a protect. I'll wait until more elders join in before I outright call it a protect.

However, I still think J Tower should prevent Given Over to Egypt from discarding the top card of ANY players deck. You cant partially prevent and not prevent a card in the same phase.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #40 on:** June 23, 2010, 10:49:47 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on June 23, 2010, 10:15:29 AM

what its 'more like' doesnt negate the current REG listing. its listed as a prevent.

This is correct for now. I apologize for any confusion caused by my previous comment. I'll let a more experienced elder handle this one.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #41 on:** June 23, 2010, 11:11:14 AM »

So... my two questions remain unanswered:

1) Can you negate/prevent half of a one-sentence ability
2) Does J Tower prevent Given Over to Egypt from activating against any player?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #42 on:** June 23, 2010, 12:58:24 PM »

Or, instead of getting drawn into a false dichotomy, can Prevents stop some cards from being targeted by a one-sentence ability?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #43 on:** June 23, 2010, 01:04:36 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on June 23, 2010, 12:58:24 PM

Or, instead of getting drawn into a false dichotomy, can Prevents stop some cards from being targeted by a one-sentence ability?

Prevent stops cards from activating.

From the REG:

Prevent is a special ability used to preempt (stop) another card’s special ability. In order for a prevent card to stop the special ability of another card, it must be played before that card. A prevent card is unlike interrupt and negate cards because it cannot undo a special ability on a card that has already been played. Prevent takes precedent over “interrupt” when the prevent is played first. (For example, Captain of the Host says that all spe cial abilities except for banding are interrupted and prevented. If he is blocked by King of Tyrus, whose special ability negates all abilities, Captain of the Hosts special ability is not negated since it is already preventing King of Tyrus special ability). This ability stops things that have not yet happened. It cannot undo things that have already happened.

I see nothing in there about prevent dealing with a cards targets. Prevent simply stops another cards special ability from activating, that is all.

Bryon · « **Reply #44 on:** June 24, 2010, 12:13:33 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 23, 2010, 01:04:36 PM

I see nothing in there about prevent dealing with a cards targets. Prevent simply stops another cards special ability from activating, that is all.

Great observation. That is why, beginning after nationals, Jerusalem Tower will be ruled a protect, rather than a prevent.

JT is a prevent now, but only because that is the status quo/ how it is classified in the REG.

For some history: JT was written before the game had clarified the differences between prevent and protect. Once those differences were made clear, we had to go back and fit all the old cards into one ability or the other. Enoch was a problem, since he uses the word "prevented" but is actually a protect ability. JT was also a difficult one to place, since it had "no opponent may" similar to the old wording for prevents, and it ALSO had a restriction for targets (your draw pile), which is only ever found on protects. We chose to classify it as a prevent. In retrospect, I don't think that was the best choice.

Since JT mentions the targets of the abilities, and says opponent can't remove them (and it doesn't even specify which abilities it supposedly prevents), we've decided to classify it as a protect. This has a Rob stamp. Again, it will go into effect beginning after nationals.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #45 on:** June 24, 2010, 12:21:45 PM »

So until the change occurs, does J Tower stop GOtE from activating against all players?

Also, while you're here, the original question of negating half of a one sentence ability is unanswered.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #46 on:** June 24, 2010, 12:21:59 PM »

So that means JT protects from Harvest Time? Awesome.

Josh · « **Reply #47 on:** June 24, 2010, 12:23:24 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on June 24, 2010, 12:13:33 PM

Since JT mentions the targets of the abilities, and says opponent can't remove them (and it doesn't even specify which abilities it supposedly prevents), we've decided to classify it as a protect. This has a Rob stamp. Again, it will go into effect beginning after nationals.

Oppressed and Robbed won't be nearly as useful after Nationals

Gabe · « **Reply #48 on:** June 24, 2010, 12:24:20 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on June 24, 2010, 12:23:24 PM

Oppressed and Robbed won't be nearly as useful after Nationals

Oddly enough your wrong about this and the reason is not related to JT.

Josh · « **Reply #49 on:** June 24, 2010, 12:33:06 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on June 24, 2010, 12:24:20 PM

Quote from: jmhartz on June 24, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
Oppressed and Robbed won't be nearly as useful after Nationals

Oddly enough your wrong about this and the reason is not related to JT.

Awesome! I'm glad I'm wrong

News:

Author Topic: Odd Negate question (Read 9928 times)

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