Author Topic: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation  (Read 1846 times)

Offline ArmedKevin117

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Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« on: August 29, 2017, 02:04:49 PM »
+1
Here's what happened:
-  I made a rescue attempt with a Hero that had Helmet of Salvation on it.  (Relevant: Protected from opponents' Dominants)
-  Opponent blocked with low numbers and played Grapes of Wrath.  Intent: discard the blocker and shuffle my rescuer.
-  I pointed out that because of Helmet of Salvation, my Hero does not get shuffled.  The only thing that happens is the blocker being discarded.
-  My opponent tries to say that the shuffle is a secondary affect of the card.  Also says that it is collectively saying all remaining characters in battle, and since it's a group target Helmet of Salvation does not protect against it.
-  I challenge the ruling.  Opponent challenges me to look it up in the REG.  (Card abilities and relevant portions of REG entries below.)
-  Short version: Since my Hero is "to be shuffled," Grapes is, in fact, trying to target it.  However, Helmet does not allow Grapes to target the Hero, since Grapes is my opponent's dominant.
-  Opponent says "that's to vague."

I'm particularly disappointed to have to post this, since said opponent is an established tournament host and judge, but who's right?

Grapes of Wrath:
Quote
"Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners' decks.  If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle."
Helmet of Salvation:
Quote
"Place on your clay, red, or teal N.T. Hero: Protect Hero from black, capture, and opponents' Dominants.  While Hero is in battle, protect up to X Lost Souls from opponent's cards."
Protect as per REG:
Quote
"A card that is immune or protected cannot be targeted by an ability that is on a card to which it is immune or protected, nor an enhancement played on that card (if a character)."
Shuffle as per REG:
Quote
"A shuffle ability targets the cards that are to be shuffled."

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 02:12:15 PM »
+3
I would guess your opponent is an MtG player as in that game targeting works similar to what he is describing. In Redemption though, targeting is part of certain ability types innately rather than being specified on a card by card basis.

Quote from: REG
A shuffle ability targets the cards that are to be shuffled.

Whether the shuffle is a cost, result, single target, group target, or anything else, a shuffle ability must be able to target the card(s) being shuffled. You are correct that an opponent's Grapes of Wrath cannot shuffle your Hero equipped with a Helmet of Salvation.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 02:36:42 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline ArmedKevin117

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 02:19:06 PM »
+2
I know he has played MTG, though the only card games I ever see him play are Hearthstone (which is entirely digital and not really relevant to this) and Redemption.

This is also far from the first time he's tried to make a bogus ruling when the rules were inconvenient for him.
Example, the time he tried to use the Defender's Choice rule to decide which soul I rescued with Eternal Inheritance:
http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/target-soul-for-eternal-inheritance/
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 02:21:47 PM by ArmedKevin117 »

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 02:24:21 PM »
0
I know he has played MTG, though the only card games I ever see him play are Hearthstone (which is entirely digital and not really relevant to this) and Redemption.

This is also far from the first time he's tried to make a bogus ruling when the rules were inconvenient for him.

The important part is that you, at least, did understand the correct way to play it and made a post to get a second opinion. It's never a bad idea to make a rule questions post, even for things that seem trivially simple.

Offline ArmedKevin117

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 02:28:05 PM »
+1
This is also far from the first time he's tried to make a bogus ruling when the rules were inconvenient for him.

The important part is that you, at least, did understand the correct way to play it and made a post to get a second opinion. It's never a bad idea to make a rule questions post, even for things that seem trivially simple.

Yeah, but if he tries to pull that at a tournament he's hosting I'll be overruled in a second.

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 02:30:44 PM »
0
This is also far from the first time he's tried to make a bogus ruling when the rules were inconvenient for him.

The important part is that you, at least, did understand the correct way to play it and made a post to get a second opinion. It's never a bad idea to make a rule questions post, even for things that seem trivially simple.

Yeah, but if he tries to pull that at a tournament he's hosting I'll be overruled in a second.

He shouldn't be judging a category he is playing in, at the very least not his own games. If he is that's an issue beyond simply ruling poorly.

Quote from: Host Guide
Judges and referees are not permitted to play in any of the categories that they are officiating.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 02:32:55 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline ArmedKevin117

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 02:32:12 PM »
0
That's true.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 02:37:21 PM »
0
This is also far from the first time he's tried to make a bogus ruling when the rules were inconvenient for him.

The important part is that you, at least, did understand the correct way to play it and made a post to get a second opinion. It's never a bad idea to make a rule questions post, even for things that seem trivially simple.

Yeah, but if he tries to pull that at a tournament he's hosting I'll be overruled in a second.

He shouldn't be judging a category he is playing in, at the very least not his own games. If he is that's an issue beyond simply ruling poorly.

Quote from: Host Guide
Judges and referees are not permitted to play in any of the categories that they are officiating.

"Shouldn't," but not required to if it is a local or district tournament, particularly if there are no other players who are experienced enough to judge.  If there is an odd number of players they can either agree for the judge to play and judge or someone can get a buy. 

And FYI, ArmedKevin, I second Kevinthedude.  Your opponent's GoW could not shuffle your hero.
Overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and don't love your life to the death!

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2017, 02:45:13 PM »
0
"Shouldn't," but not required to if it is a local or district tournament, particularly if there are no other players who are experienced enough to judge.  If there is an odd number of players they can either agree for the judge to play and judge or someone can get a buy. 

I agree for the most part. Tournaments that level in my area tend to be extremely small and I do regularly judge other people's games in the same category I am playing but still not ever a question from an individual game I am participating in. Even with the most limited of options, a player should never be judging their own game.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 02:52:31 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 02:49:47 PM »
0
Quote from: Watchman492
"Shouldn't," but not required to if it is a local or district tournament, particularly if there are no other players who are experienced enough to judge.  If there is an odd number of players they can either agree for the judge to play and judge or someone can get a buy.

From the Redemption tournament guide.


Offline Red Wing

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 03:02:18 PM »
+2
This post is over seven years old, but I think it's still a good standard for hosts playing.

Hmmm.... the rules say that there has to be a non-playing judge. Are we just tossing that rule because we trust each other? Does Rob give his stamp of approval on this policy? I would certainly love to play in my own tournaments.
Officially the Tournament Guide States that the judge/host is permitted to play in a category he is not judging provided it does not interfer with his duties judging the other categories.  That said, I don't enforce this on local play groups if the players want their host to play with them and believe that the host/judge will rule fairly for everyone. 

Last year I hosted the NC State Tournament here in Hayesville.  Clift Crysel, Eric Largent, Tyler Stevens, the Kamke family and a few others joined the Andersons for the tournament.  I was planning to judge and not play.  Those who traveled here asked that I play too.  I joined in and we had a great time.  I can't recall any problems.  I can't see it making sense in a big multi-category event.  There is just too much to do as host.  But, for events of 20 players or less, it's okay with me if it's okay with the players there.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:04:31 PM by Red Wing »
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Obvious question: Grapes of Wrath and Helmet of Salvation
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 03:23:13 PM »
+1
"Shouldn't," but not required to if it is a local or district tournament, particularly if there are no other players who are experienced enough to judge.  If there is an odd number of players they can either agree for the judge to play and judge or someone can get a buy. 

I agree for the most part. Tournaments that level in my area tend to be extremely small and I do regularly judge other people's games in the same category I am playing but still not ever a question from an individual game I am participating in. Even with the most limited of options, a player should never be judging their own game.

What I've done in this scenario (when my opponent or I have a question about something), if I cannot prove to or show my opponent definitively in the rulebook or from the forum, I ask the next most experienced player to make a ruling, or I will give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent.
Overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and don't love your life to the death!

 


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