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Artifacts and Ongoing SAs on characters are different. The distinction is that artifacts "reactivate" through phases.

If only artifacts "reactivate through phases" then how does Simon the Zealot work? What about Judas?

In the example you cited from Tim, the Evil Character most definitely IS captured (assuming Holy Ground is CBN).

If the scenario went like this:
Red Hero attacks.
Blocked by Black EC.
EC plays Foolish advice
Red Hero plays Baggage.
Hero uses CBN Holy ground to negate Foolish Advice.

Result EC IS NOT captured.

It really isn't that complicated. The only part that is a bit tricky is the "endless loop of FBTN," but we made a rule to address that a long time ago.

Quote from: Hedgehogman on January 31, 2014, 03:12:05 PM

I agree with Tim and his reasoning (as usual). Redemption desperately needs a stack system of some sort. Magic doesn't have this crazy "undo everything that was once done" version of negate goofiness. In Magic, the only thing you can negate is the last ability/card that was played (in 99% of scenarios). If you let Ability X resolve, it's resolved, gg no re, The End. There is no "undoing" it and reverting back to a previous game state. This makes for a very simple to understand game state in 99% of cases.

 I'm not saying Redemption should become Magic, but we can learn a lot from how their rules have evolved. As the second oldest CCG, Redemption can still use some work in that regard.

Redemption sometimes skews logic in favor of the 'Redemption isn't so-and-so CCG' argument.

Redemption was also released in July of 1995. There were a slew of CCG's released between 1993 and that time.

1. Yes, I'm aware of that and I'm actively trying to change that line of reasoning lol

2. Yes, but none that are still around today. The rest are all dead.

And that distinction is supposed to lead to less confusion? 

I need to think this over a bit before continuing. I will be attending a tournament tomorrow and I believe Prof A, SirNobody and Hobbit will all be there so I imagine we will have a discussion regarding this topic.

Quote from: The Guardian on January 31, 2014, 03:24:16 PM

Quote

Artifacts and Ongoing SAs on characters are different. The distinction is that artifacts "reactivate" through phases.

If only artifacts "reactivate through phases" then how does Simon the Zealot work? What about Judas?

Simon, Judas and Aaron's abilities don't reactivate; they just don't stop while the condition (their remaining in play) is met.

And that distinction is supposed to lead to less confusion? 

It is a distinction that is consistent with how ongoing abilities work, and is specifically defined in the rules.  The "While in play" component explicitly defines the duration of his ability.  It also lends credence to my argument about how characters activate, because it has been ruled to be CBN in the phase following its activation, because it is completed, even though it is ongoing.  That is the difference:  If an artifact had this ability, it would not be treated as CBN, and that is because it is always activating, while Simon activated once.  Just as if Simon enters another battle, his previous activation is no longer CBN (because he reactivated it), and it can be negated in that battle and not continue, an artifact with the same ability is not CBN because it is always reactivating.

To the point about CBI abilities:  If the ability were CBP instead, how would you rule that?  Think it over, see what answers you get, and you'll see why I see a load of inconsistency there, too.

EDIT:  Found a couple of Elder posts while looking up other threads that I wanted to throw into this discussion as well, to show that there may be a need to take this to the other side for hash-out anyway:

Imagine I attack with Moses (negate everything) and am blocked with Uzzah and then somehow Moses gets negated later in the battle.  At that point Uzzah's ability does NOT kick back in because abilities that don't go off when they are played don't kick in later right?

If Moses makes a rescue and is blocked by Uzzah, then Uzzah's protection never starts.  Even if later in the battle Moses is negated, Uzzah's special ability will NOT start working.

We talked this over yesterday and didn't get anywhere. We did find out the Tim Maly (SirNobody) sides with Redoubter. He said something like negate prevents activation and since there is only one activation period it cannot reactivate. Moreover, even if Moses gets negated you do not go back to the singular point of activation and get to use Prince's ability because activation is a game mechanic and not a special ability or a card.

Since there seems to be no resolution right now, I'm locking this thread.  There's nothing else to really say at this point, it has to be resolved among the Elders.

If someone could give us a ruling to use in the meantime it would be appreciated.  Otherwise, please let us know when there is a response