Author Topic: Thad + Crown of thorns (Read 2896 times)

Cpt.Jaeger · « **on:** January 15, 2011, 04:22:57 AM »

If I have 10 Disciples in play, Crown of thorns activated, and RA with Thad, does he protect from Leviathon?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2011, 08:18:50 AM »

Yes, Leviathan will have 9 defense.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2011, 11:18:38 AM »

Now, just to be clear, does Thaddeus win the battle (if no enhancements are played), or does he have to beat the new 9 defense to win the Lost Soul? Also, would Thaddeus be discarded if no enhancements are played, since Leviathan's strength is still greater than Thaddeus' defense?

Overarching question:

Does "Protect" only protect from Special Abilities, or does it include protection from the numbers?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2011, 11:39:37 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 15, 2011, 11:18:38 AM

Now, just to be clear, does Thaddeus win the battle (if no enhancements are played), or does he have to beat the new 9 defense to win the Lost Soul? Also, would Thaddeus be discarded if no enhancements are played, since Leviathan's strength is still greater than Thaddeus' defense?

Overarching question:

Does "Protect" only protect from Special Abilities, or does it include protection from the numbers?

Thaddeus still has to win the battle by numbers or SA to win. However, the question of whether generic protection includes numbers or not has been one of debate. I always rule that it does protect from numbers (meaning if Thadd had no enhancements to play vs. Leviathan, it would be a stalemate) but I know there are some differing opinions.

crustpope · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2011, 12:14:50 PM »

A stalemate as in Thad has 8 Offense and 8 defense while leviathan has 0 offense and 9 defense correct? so any increase of Thads offense would pass initiative to Leviathan but all cards would be protected from the SA's on those cards correct?

Although now that I think of it, didnt this convo come up when we discussed the protection of angels card? that protection of Angels protects against SA's but not against the Numbers? that an angel could still lose by the numbers with that card? would that not be the case with Thad in this scenario?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2011, 12:24:02 PM »

You are correct on the PoA ruling, and I assumed that would carry over to Thad.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2011, 12:40:44 PM »

the definition of "protect" in redemption only covers abilities, you cannot protect from numbers

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2011, 12:54:14 PM »

Exactly! Thaddeus doesn't even mention evil cards, and regardless if it did protection from cards only protects from the text that is written over the artwork on the card, i.e. sometimes called a "special ability". (Bazinga! That was Sheldon-type sarcasm.

)

crustpope · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2011, 03:45:54 PM »

Ok my bad on the evil cards. so the SA's on those evil enhancements would still work, It thad basically just protects all cards from SA's on Evil Characters, not on the EE's played on it. THat sounds a lot more balanced

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2011, 04:09:56 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on January 15, 2011, 03:45:54 PM

Ok my bad on the evil cards. so the SA's on those evil enhancements would still work, It thad basically just protects all cards from SA's on Evil Characters, not on the EE's played on it. THat sounds a lot more balanced

Enhancements need a character to work. They're played on the character and "used by" the character. If Thad is protecting from a EC, then cards protected by Thad are also protected from enhancements played on that EC.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2011, 04:31:11 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 15, 2011, 11:39:37 AM

However, the question of whether generic protection includes numbers or not has been one of debate.

Quote from: crustpope on January 15, 2011, 12:14:50 PM

Although now that I think of it, didnt this convo come up when we discussed the protection of angels card? that protection of Angels protects against SA's but not against the Numbers? that an angel could still lose by the numbers with that card? would that not be the case with Thad in this scenario?

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on January 15, 2011, 12:24:02 PM

You are correct on the PoA ruling, and I assumed that would carry over to Thad.

Which is it?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2011, 05:35:25 PM »

Protection differs from Immunity in that it deals with targeting on special abilities. A protected-from-everything character can still die by numbers (unless he is specifically protected from Discard). There is no "opinion" on what the rule here is, it's already been ruled that way. It is apparently a contested ruling, though, and at least one elder seems unaware of it.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2011, 07:21:04 PM »

Might as well throw this in- if im correct, (and if not please let me know)...

An EC can not be protected from itself so an ability like Red Dragon still works against Thaddeus.

Gabe · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2011, 07:57:18 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on January 15, 2011, 07:21:04 PM

Might as well throw this in- if im correct, (and if not please let me know)...

An EC can not be protected from itself so an ability like Red Dragon still works against Thaddeus.

True.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2011, 08:34:19 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 15, 2011, 05:35:25 PM

Protection differs from Immunity in that it deals with targeting on special abilities. A protected-from-everything character can still die by numbers (unless he is specifically protected from Discard). There is no "opinion" on what the rule here is, it's already been ruled that way. It is apparently a contested ruling, though, and at least one elder seems unaware of it.

I guess I do remember that thread, but I mostly remembered the opposing viewpoints. While the way I thought it was makes more sense to me, it seems I was mistaken. Generic protect abilities do not protect against strength of characters or enhancements.

crustpope · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2011, 09:04:10 PM »

But protection does work like immunity when reffering to enhancements played on them? So a hero protected from an evil charachters SA is also protected from enhancements played on that EC?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2011, 09:24:23 PM »

Only insomuch as he cannot be targeted by them. Their numbers will still affect the Hero.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2011, 12:30:11 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 15, 2011, 11:18:38 AM

Now, just to be clear, does Thaddeus win the battle (if no enhancements are played), or does he have to beat the new 9 defense to win the Lost Soul? Also, would Thaddeus be discarded if no enhancements are played, since Leviathan's strength is still greater than Thaddeus' defense?

Overarching question:

Does "Protect" only protect from Special Abilities, or does it include protection from the numbers?

So are the answers to my questions as follows:

1. Thaddeus has to beat the 9 defense or no Lost Soul.
2. Thaddeus would be discarded if no other enhancements were played.
3. "Protect" only protects from Special Abilities.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2011, 12:36:59 AM »

That is correct, with clarification on 3. Protect defaults to protecting from targeting by Special Abilities, but can be used to protect from other things if specified (such as the many cards that Protect from Discard). There could theoretically be a card somewhere in the future that says "Protect this card from the Strength of all characters of opposite alignment," and that card would obviously be protected from Discard by numbers.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2011, 02:40:18 PM »

How long has the REG defined protect that way? Just curious. I wonder how many people have played enoch, Job, protection of angels etc, wrong.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** January 16, 2011, 02:43:35 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on January 16, 2011, 02:40:18 PM

How long has the REG defined protect that way? Just curious. I wonder how many people have played enoch, Job, protection of angels etc, wrong.

The REG has defined it that way as long as I can remember. I think I started on the boards about four years ago.

The reason I had asked was because of the way people have played Protection of Angels, which I thought was wrong.

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Author Topic: Thad + Crown of thorns (Read 2896 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13