Author Topic: Negating the Throne of David? (Read 7450 times)

Jeremystair · « **on:** July 20, 2018, 08:58:42 AM »

If I make a rescue attempt with a purple King and my opponent blocks with Brown / Crimson Outsiders and goes and gets the image of the Beast can he negate the play ability off of The Throne of David?

I think that as soon as Outsiders enters battle Throne triggers and the playability can't be interrupted but the draw can be negated is this correct?

The Throne of David

Play As:
If your purple king is blocked and no Evil Character in battle is equipped with a weapon, you may draw X and play an O.T. purple Enhancement.

Outsiders

If blocking, search deck, discard pile or Reserve for an idol. You may activate that idol. Cannot be negated if opponent has more cards in hand than you.

Image of the Beast

Negate a good or neutral card in play or a set-aside area. Cannot be interrupted.

Lexicon is the fastest way to get the special abilities and play as. Thanks

Xonathan · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2018, 09:09:18 AM »

No, Throne checks for a trigger after Outsider's ability completes but by then it's negated.

The Guardian · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2018, 10:28:59 AM »

Jeremystair · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2018, 10:50:03 AM »

One more question about throne. If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?

If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?

REG
For cards with brigades, the rainbow represents all brigades of the card’s alignment.

Xonathan · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2018, 10:52:43 AM »

It's a similar situation, by the time the Evil Character ability is resolved, you no longer have a king in battle for throne to trigger. To answer your other question, you can play O.T. rainbow enhancements off throne.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2018, 10:58:29 AM »

Wasn't the king blocked even though he was withdrawn?

so you're saying that the evil character special ability has to complete before Throne can trigger?

Xonathan · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2018, 11:08:25 AM »

Jeremystair · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2018, 11:17:40 AM »

Are you sure that's right?

REG Block

The Evil Characters that blocked are those that are in battle once the block is complete, or if there are none in battle, the last one to leave battle. The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.

Xonathan · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2018, 11:46:59 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 20, 2018, 11:17:40 AM

Are you sure that's right?

REG Block

The Evil Characters that blocked are those that are in battle once the block is complete, or if there are none in battle, the last one to leave battle. The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.

Once the block is complete, your King is no longer in battle. I'm not saying your King didn't get blocked but for Throne's trigger he must remain in battle after the Evil Character's block is complete.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2018, 11:48:39 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 08, 2012, 09:43:50 PM
Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"?

The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.

So just to clarify the above is no longer true anymore then?

I'm not understanding why that works that way because he was blocked why does he have to stay in battle?

goalieking87 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2018, 11:50:32 AM »

I agree that this is confusing, but have had it ruled as Xonathan stated.

I do think the wording on the definition of Enter Battle should be clarified though. I was told that the character has not entered battle until the ability is completed (at which time in this case, the King would not be in battle) but the wording in the REG says when they move from one location to the field of battle, which sounds like it is pre-ability activation.

I would put the definition here but can’t copy it right now.

Xonathan · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2018, 11:53:31 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 20, 2018, 11:48:39 AM

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM
Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 08, 2012, 09:43:50 PM
Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"?

The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.

So just to clarify the above is no longer true anymore then?

I'm not understanding why that works that way because he was blocked why does he have to stay in battle?

That is still true, but pulled out of context. SirNobody's example includes the King being present after the EC is finished blocking which in our case isn't the situation.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2018, 01:17:41 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on July 20, 2018, 11:50:32 AM

I do think the wording on the definition of Enter Battle should be clarified though. I was told that the character has not entered battle until the ability is completed (at which time in this case, the King would not be in battle) but the wording in the REG says when they move from one location to the field of battle, which sounds like it is pre-ability activation.

The definition of enters battle is what it needs to be, or you wind up with banding chains "entering" in reverse order, since a band ability doesn't complete until the abilities on the characters it bands in are complete.

IMO, once a trigger is triggered, it goes off unless there's another condition (like the weapon on Throne), that is checked afterwards.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2018, 01:38:45 PM »

So what about my first question then as soon as Outsiders gets put into battle it triggers throne and since the playability can't be interrupted you still get to play a card right?

or my second question If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?

If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?

REG
For cards with brigades, the rainbow represents all brigades of the card’s alignment.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2018, 02:03:45 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 20, 2018, 01:38:45 PM

1. So what about my first question then as soon as Outsiders gets put into battle it triggers throne and since the playability can't be interrupted you still get to play a card right?

2. or my second question If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?

3. If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?

REG
For cards with brigades, the rainbow represents all brigades of the card’s alignment.

1. Throne never triggers because it's negated before it can trigger.

2. At the time Throne is triggered there is no purple king in battle so no trigger.

3. Rainbow is indeed a purple enhancement so yes you can play a rainbow enhancement off Throne regardless of the brigade of the Hero you are playing the enhancement on.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2018, 02:22:17 PM »

I guess I need to understand when throne triggers. in my head thrown triggers as soon as the evil character is placed down and is waiting to finish when the evil characters ability has completed.

REG Triggered abilities

When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.

While the condition of a triggered effect is triggered by an event happening, the effect may not activate until there are no effects resolving. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting to activate are pending abilities.

REG Pending

Pending abilities are abilities that are waiting for the effects of other abilities to resolve. Effects are resolving when they are activating or completing. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending effect activation. Interrupted abilities that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending reactivation.

REG Block

The Evil Characters that blocked are those that are in battle once the block is complete, or if there are none in battle, the last one to leave battle. The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.

REG Ability activation order

9. Activate all pending abilities with triggered effects, following the order provide definition of triggered effect abilities.

Xonathan · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2018, 03:21:00 PM »

Throne triggers when all of its conditions are met. When your king is in battle, throne waits for the triggering effect which is a King being blocked and no weapon on an EC. A block is complete when the first EC is in battle and they've had finished their special abilities. If an Evil Character's special ability negates throne or removes the King in battle when it first enters, throne can no longer can trigger because its conditions or the triggering event hasn't been met or its ability has been interrupted/negated.

I hope that's clear and I understand the confusion. We came up with a lot of throne questions at EC Regionals lol.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2018, 03:44:14 PM »

It's like hidden treasures with Rachel to Joseph. Throne checks 2 times. Once after your character enters and again after the blocker enter after all abilities have completed. If your king is no longer in battle then not all conditions are met anymore. Also the play is not CBI its inherently cbi after it a card is played because game rule. There is nothing stopping it from being negated or prevented like in the example you are giving. The negate on outsiders stops it from the 2nd check and then kicks in as a prevent before the draw and play.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2018, 05:06:14 PM »

Quote from: Xonathan on July 20, 2018, 03:21:00 PM

Throne triggers when all of its conditions are met. When your king is in battle, throne waits for the triggering effect which is a King being blocked and no weapon on an EC. A block is complete when the first EC is in battle and they've had finished their special abilities. If an Evil Character's special ability negates throne or removes the King in battle when it first enters, throne can no longer can trigger because its conditions or the triggering event hasn't been met or its ability has been interrupted/negated.

I hope that's clear and I understand the confusion. We came up with a lot of throne questions at EC Regionals lol.

I understand how Outsiders negates thrown now reading through the REG. But this does not make sense if the king is removed from Battle.

It sounds like as soon as the evil character is put into play the conditions are met there's a purple King in battle, he was blocked by an evil character that has no weapon. Throne is triggered and now it's just a pending ability. There's no reason for it to check a second time after the evil character swaps out the hero that is in battle with the hero that's in territory.

REG Triggered abilities

When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.

While the condition of a triggered effect is triggered by an event happening, the effect may not activate until there are no effects resolving. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting to activate are pending abilities

REG Pending

Pending abilities are abilities that are waiting for the effects of other abilities to resolve. Effects are resolving when they are activating or completing. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending effect activation

REG Block

The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2018, 05:12:04 PM »

A character is not considered entered battle till all abilities complete. If the ability kicks out the king and brings someone else in then not all condition are met for throne anymore.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2018, 05:22:35 PM »

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on July 20, 2018, 05:12:04 PM

A character is not considered entered battle till all abilities complete. If the ability kicks out the king and brings someone else in then not all condition are met for throne anymore.

REG Enters Battle
A character enters battle when they move into the Field of Battle from another location.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2018, 05:23:00 PM »

A character enters battle to activate it's ability, or AUTO enters battle after it exchanges for Gideon, which makes no sense. Or the EC Ehud chooses to block enters battle before Ehud himself does.

Xonathan · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2018, 05:44:07 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 20, 2018, 05:22:35 PM

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on July 20, 2018, 05:12:04 PM
A character is not considered entered battle till all abilities complete. If the ability kicks out the king and brings someone else in then not all condition are met for throne anymore.

REG Enters Battle
A character enters battle when they move into the Field of Battle from another location.

Entering battle and blocking are two different things.

See it this way. Throne trigger cannot insert itself in the midst of abilities. Just like you can’t play Doms when a character’s special ability isn’t done.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2018, 06:49:58 PM »

Just with this REG quote it still makes the Hero that was blocked the one that who was in battle first still should trigger throne.

REG Block

The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2018, 09:55:53 PM »

Sorry I used the wrong term. The hero is not considered blocked till the evil abilities complete. It doent change that if i push your King out throne doesn't trigger because a king is no longer being blocked.

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Author Topic: Negating the Throne of David? (Read 7450 times)