Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Ken4Christ4ever on July 11, 2011, 01:47:28 PM
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From what I understand, if a card allows you to reveal more than one card from a deck, you may choose the order they are returned to the deck. What happens if the reveal ability is negated? Do the cards need to return to the order they were in? This could be difficult if there were a lot of cards revealed...
Also, if we take a situation of "reveal the top ten cards of your deck and take up to two evil enhancements there into your hand" (yes, I made that up as an example). If this ability was later negated, what would happen? Would the evil enhancements return to my deck? Would they have to be put back in the order they had been in? What if I can't remember the order?
Thanks for your help!
Ken
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Negating a reveal:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_R_sbWukBfwI%2FSJUs6u2Q5eI%2FAAAAAAAACqQ%2Fw-Sm8WTrsIA%2Fs400%2Fneuralizer_mib.jpg&hash=660381641fba832d7aeb6681688c8c4d8e1a6c1c)
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From what I understand, if a card allows you to reveal more than one card from a deck, you may choose the order they are returned to the deck. What happens if the reveal ability is negated? Do the cards need to return to the order they were in? This could be difficult if there were a lot of cards revealed...
Also, if we take a situation of "reveal the top ten cards of your deck and take up to two evil enhancements there into your hand" (yes, I made that up as an example). If this ability was later negated, what would happen? Would the evil enhancements return to my deck? Would they have to be put back in the order they had been in? What if I can't remember the order?
Thanks for your help!
Ken
I'm guessing a reveal such as that would by necessity be similar to an ability that shuffles your deck, i.e., the reveal part of it cannot be interrupted. I would then have to say that if you revealed and took cards like that, then you would take the amount of cards revealed back from the place you put them, shuffle the revealed stack with the cards you took, and put it back where it was revealed from. The only card I can think of like that that can be interrupted is Divination played in battle (which it rarely is) so ideally the situation would rarely come up.
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From what I understand, if a card allows you to reveal more than one card from a deck, you may choose the order they are returned to the deck.
Just to clarify, cards revealed from a deck stay where they were, in the same order. When they are placed on the bottom of deck, they can be placed in any order.
Can you give an example of a "reveal and place on bottom" that can be negated?
*INSTAPOSTED*
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The only card I can think of like that that can be interrupted is Divination played in battle (which it rarely is) so ideally the situation would rarely come up.
Divination is CBI.
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The only card I can think of like that that can be interrupted is Divination played in battle (which it rarely is) so ideally the situation would rarely come up.
Divination is CBI.
Oh good. Wasn't sure on that. I guess the playtesters divined this as being a potential problem...
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From what I understand, if a card allows you to reveal more than one card from a deck, you may choose the order they are returned to the deck.
Just to clarify, cards revealed from a deck stay where they were, in the same order. When they are placed on the bottom of deck, they can be placed in any order.
Can you give an example of a "reveal and place on bottom" that can be negated?
*INSTAPOSTED*
Also, YMT is correct with his clarification, in case you are wondering.
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From what I understand, if a card allows you to reveal more than one card from a deck, you may choose the order they are returned to the deck.
Just to clarify, cards revealed from a deck stay where they were, in the same order. When they are placed on the bottom of deck, they can be placed in any order.
Can you give an example of a "reveal and place on bottom" that can be negated?
*INSTAPOSTED*
This is VERY good to know since it's not what I had heard before. :) Thank you for clearing this up before I ruled it wrong at the WI State tournament this weekend. It has been ruled incorrectly multiple times by me and that I have seen, so I will make sure to provide clarification to the people it pertains to most often.
Thanks again!
Ken
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Wait wut.
From what I understand, if a card allows you to reveal more than one card from a deck, you may choose the order they are returned to the deck.
Just to clarify, cards revealed from a deck stay where they were, in the same order. When they are placed on the bottom of deck, they can be placed in any order.
Can you give an example of a "reveal and place on bottom" that can be negated?
When did this happen? I always thought the rule was if the card doesn't specify you can put them back in any order.
I thought someone (maybe it was me :dunno:) asked this question recently about Eve and was told that.
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I made the thread you are looking for. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/reveal-27158/)
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Ok, so I'm not the only one who has been playing it that way... Now we have two threads with two very different conclusions. Help?
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Ok, so I'm not the only one who has been playing it that way... Now we have two threads with two very different conclusions. Help?
A contradictory ruling...
Unheard of!
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There is really no good reason why revealed cards can be ordered on bottom but not on top when the abilities, like Pol said, are not specific.
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This is a ruling that needs to made by Elders, no offense to Polarius.
The REG specifically states that cards placed on the bottom of deck can be placed in any order:
Instant Special Abilities > Fortify or Place > Special Conditions
• Cards placed in a draw pile typically specify a particular location in the draw pile (e.g., bottom). If a player must place multiple cards at the same time, that player may choose the order of the cards being placed.
However, reveal does not have such a stipulation. Reveal, by definition, just allows you to see the cards, not place them wherever you want. Most reveal cards also have a place ability. But those that do not have no freedom for rearrangement.
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We have cards that specify that you may put them in any order, if it doesnt say you can, you probably cant. and if your going to pull the "it doesnt say I cant so I can' argument we are going to have to start making the cards a lot bigger so we can list all the things cards cant do
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i agree, i have heard no such ruling before of putting revealed cards back in the order chosen.
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Thanks for the explanation, YourMathTeacher!
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Thanks for the explanation, YourMathTeacher!
No offense to me, but I would await one more Elder verification for this ruling to be official. So far only ProfessorAlstad has confirmed it.
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So... if I use Eve and have about 8 characters in play, and since it is a reveal I have to show my opponent, what if some cards get mixed up/dropped/shuffled somehow. Do I get D/Q'd for cheating?
Serious question.
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So... if I use Eve and have about 8 characters in play, and since it is a reveal I have to show my opponent, what if some cards get mixed up/dropped/shuffled somehow. Do I get D/Q'd for cheating?
Serious question.
If it's an honest mistake, then I would rule that you should shuffle the cards that were dropped and put them on top of your deck, unless you can remember exactly the order they were in. There are quite a few things in the game that require players to be honest and trustworthy, which is part of what makes it a game that should be more focused on fun and fellowship than anything else.
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YMT is correct on his clarification making Professor Alstad correct for agreeing with YMT's correctness. Ironically I'd never realized that cards like Eve required that the revealed cards are returned in the same order. I guess an old dog can learn new tricks from time to time.
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Stop with the old references already. Now where are.my teeth?
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Stop with the old references already. Now where are.my teeth?
They're in the New REG. You'll get them back soon. :maul:
Sidenote: We need a toothless smile emoticon.
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This is very news to me. If revealed cards are no longer replaced in the order of the revealer's choosing, there should be an announcement thread or a post in ruling updates.
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This is very news to me. If revealed cards are no longer replaced in the order of the revealer's choosing, there should be an announcement thread or a post in ruling updates.
If you've been returning revealed cards, that are being returned to the exact same location, in any order you choose, then like me you've been playing it wrong.
I made the assumption that it was the correct play because that's how most "reveal" cards (the Revealer LS, Seeker of the Lost, Suzy, etc) are played. Those cards work that way because the reveal is paired with a place ability. That's what the old REG has said for years.
Place
Cards placed in a draw pile typically specify a particular location in the draw pile (e.g., bottom). If a player must place multiple cards at the same time, that player may choose the order of the cards being placed.
You're correct that it will be a change for you and I, but not because the rules of Redemption have changed, because we've been playing it wrong.
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Maybe I was mistaken that the last time this was brought up the thread ended with a ruling that reveal abilities work the way we thought they did. Either way, that's quite disappo9inting for Genesis.
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that's quite disappointing for Genesis.
So was 1996 :)
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that's quite disappointing for Genesis.
So was 1996 :)
:D
That really should go in your favorite quotes thread.
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That really should go in your favorite quotes thread.
On principle, I can't put myself there, but I do appreciate that you got it and enjoyed it :)
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There should be some mechanism whereby you can add your own quotes to that thread. Maybe if your post gets to plus a dozen or so, you could add it based on the will of the people.
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There should be some mechanism whereby you can add your own quotes to that thread. Maybe if your post gets to plus a dozen or so, you could add it based on the will of the people.
OK, I guess that seems fair, and objective. We'll go with that :)