Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: EmJayBee83 on September 07, 2011, 08:31:14 AM
-
Here is a question that arose on a different thread, but I want to give it its own spot because it has major game play repercussions...
You make a rescue with some White dude and I block with Black. You have initiative and play Blessings. Initiative passes to me and I play Wrath of Satan. I still have initiative and play Bringing Fear. Are all the heroes in play wiped out?
According to your logic above... When Bringing Fear was played, it Negated the Good Negate, and now Wrath of Satan, not having been negated, takes effect.
That is correct from my understanding.
My understanding is that (since Wrath of Satan was prevented when it was played) it would not activate at some later time when the card preventing it is negated.
-
Hm, I'm not sure about this. Logic dictates that Wrath of Satan would then activate, since it's no longer being negated/prevented. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that there's some game rule where if an enhancement is prevented, even if the prevention is negated, it still can't activate. So basically, logic dictates it's one way, so there's probably some wacky game rule that makes it the other. Sorry I could be absolutely no help.
-
The explanation I've heard is that cards only activate once. If they're prevented (i.e. stopped before they activate) they can't activate again.
The best example I've seen is Tower of Thebez. If it's occupied, and my EC's are Cannanite, my opponent's hero will be negated upon rescuing. If I then block with a non-Cannanite, Tower no longer works, but the rescuing hero does not have it's ability activate. If another hero is then banded into battle, their ability will activate.
-
That's a bad example, because Tower is not being negated, simply not negating from the point the EC leaves onward. If Tower were up and occupied and you attacked with Matthew and played MLaMG on Tower, I'd say that you get to D3 and band at that point.
-
It's a fine example. Tower's no longer negating heroes, but the original hero does not activate.
/Though I'd certainly rule against one banding with an un-gathered Matthew.
-
There's a difference between an ability being negated and simply turned off via a condition no longer being met.
-
Can I get an example where that would make a difference? (Tired right now, could be missing something)
-
The Tower of Thebez example.
Here's another one. RA Eve, blocked by a 6/6 EC to play Numerous as the Stars bringing in Zeb drawing up to 5 cards. EC plays Wrath. Eve is Discarded but Zeb Ignores. Zeb then plays Buying Grain, drawing up to 6 cards. The EC is no longer being ignored, but the ignore wasn't negated so Zeb doesn't die from Wrath.
-
Right, one can't re-target after targets have been selected. But that's targeting, not negating.
-
You can target an ignoring card, it just won't do anything. Protect effects what is being targeted, not ignore or immunity.
Zeb was targeted by Wrath, and would die from it if his ignore were negated, but it was just turned off.
-
So you would rule that if I then played Bringing Fear, Zeb would be discarded?
-
That is correct.
-
That is not correct. In the situation above, playing Bringing Fear after Wrath of Satan would not cause Zeb to be discarded. Wrath of Satan is an instant ability (discard), therefore it cannot discard anything further after it resolves, and when it resolves Zeb is in a state of ignoring it.
The only way playing Bringing Fear after WoS could possibly discard an ignoring Zeb is if Zeb (for whatever reason) interrupted Wrath and then you played a black interrupt/play next and played Bringing Fear.
As far as I know, MJB is correct in saying that abilities activate once and if they are negated/prevented at that point then they don't activate or reactivate later.
-
And as far as I know, he is not correct.
-
I know I'm right about the Zeb/WoS/BF question. Zeb's ignore is active when WoS resolves, so he cannot be discarded by it even if you negate his ability later (unless, as I said, you interrupt WoS before negating Zeb).
-
I've always played it the way browarod stated. Instant abilities are, well, instant.
-
And I've always played it the way I'm describing, and I know I'm right. See a pattern here? This will take an elder ruling.
-
This is a case of targeting. The REG should distinguish between instant and ongoing targeting. It doesn't. So here lies a mess.
In my humble opinion, Wrath does not work in the example given because it is an instant targeting ability as opposed to an ongoing targeting ability.
-
Actually, it's not a targeting matter, it's an instant ability matter. WoS is instant, it can only discard heroes when it resolves, no other time. Zeb is ignoring when it resolves, therefore he is not discarded. That's it for WoS, it's done. It doesn't care how the battle progresses from there unless someone interrupts or negates it. It has nothing to do with targeting in this case.
And I've always played it the way I'm describing, and I know I'm right. See a pattern here? This will take an elder ruling.
WoS is an instant ability. It is not ongoing, it does not have a delayed trigger, it's just a plain discard. What possible reason do you have to justify that an instant ability with no other conditions can discard twice at two different points in a battle?
-
Because if the ignore is negated, Zeb wasn't ignoring Wrath when it was played.
-
Wrath doesn't discard Zeb if you play Bringing Fear afterwards.
There's your Elder ruling for you.
-
Because if the ignore is negated, Zeb wasn't ignoring Wrath when it was played.
But negating Zeb's ability doesn't magically rewind the battle to before WoS was played. It activated, it discarded, and it's done.
Wrath doesn't discard Zeb if you play Bringing Fear afterwards.
There's your Elder ruling for you.
Thank you.
-
I don't believe the issue is about time of activation and re-activation, but rather targeting. I believe Wrath CAN reactivate (I could be wrong), but it won't re-assess targets. It targets characters once, and that's it. So if it is then NOT negated and activates later, it will activate (once again, I'm not 100% positive) but only destroy the characters it would have already discarded if it had activated the first time.
If it enters play already negated, I'm not sure how that'd work as I'm not sure if it technically chose targets, since it was negated.
-
It doesn't reactivate because nothing stopped it from activating the first time. It activated, it chose all non-protected targets, and it discarded all heroes not ignoring or immune to it. It's done, finished, there is no "reactivation" of it regardless of what happens later in the battle (except, as I said, in the case of it being interrupted).
-
I agree. When the discard happens, it happens. It doesn't re-happen just because something new happened. You can look "discard" up in the REG and it will tell you that it's an instant ability.
-
Oh perhaps I misunderstood the scenario. My bad. =)
-
This kind of stuff really irks me. It's my understanding that a negate allows you to go back in time, thus, if the enhancement doing the discard cannot complete because the target is protected, you would have to negate the protect BEFORE playing the discard enhancement (In this case WoS). The enhancement process serves as a time-line of how the battle is going to progress, so, here's the simplified scenario: Hero ignores EC, EC plays discard enhancement targeting the ignored Hero (Thus it can't complete), Bringing Fear is played to negate Hero, from that point on, Hero's SA is negated unless BF is somehow interrupted or negated. However, BF does NOT go back in time beyond WoS to make the Hero a successful target.
So here is the time-line: Zeb activates and ignores, WoS activates, BF activates, Zeb no longer ignores.
What people are thinking is happening: Zeb activates and ignores, BF negates and Zeb no longer ignores, WoS activates and succeeds, BF activates and goes back in time to make the previous possible. <- Not logical in any way.
Other version: Zeb activates and ignores, WoS activates and fails, BF activates and Zeb no longer ignores, WoS is then successful and Zeb is discarded. <- Also not logical.
BF is not interrupting WoS, so WoS will activate before BF, thus, making WoS useless except for numbers.
In order to make WoS successful, you would have to play BF before WoS. The problem is, in that case, Zeb is no longer ignoring the EC, so his "player" is subject to gain initiative.
Solution 2: Play an interrupt the battle (after WoS) and play an enhancement (BF). This would then interrupt WoS before it completes and thus make Zeb a successful target without his "player" being subject to initiative.
If my logic here is way off here, then I really have no idea how to play this game anymore because it's become more complex than necessary. You have to look at what BF is interrupting and preventing (Negating), and it's NOT WoS.
-
The problem is that you can't target an ignoring hero, that's why your scenario doesn't work. The ignoring hero is never targeted.
-
Ha, well then, you would need an enhancement that states: "Regardless of protection, etc..."
Since Zeb isn't a valid target, no matter what you do in battle, you will not succeed in harming/effecting Zebulun. I don't understand what this argument is even about then. Zeb would have to be negated by an ability outside of battle or an enhancement that includes my above statement.
There really isn't any way for an ignored character to affect the one doing the ignoring, so please clarify what this argument is about.
-
I believe is started as a question similar to: if an enhancement like WoS is prevented and the prevent is later negated, does WoS then activate or does it fizzle because at the time it was played it was prevented?
-
Thats not quite true C_S if the character is already in battle and an enhancement is played that makes it ignored, then you have special initiative to play an interrupt. It doesn't need to be regardless of protection as long as you are interrupting that enhancement
-
I believe is started as a question similar to: if an enhancement like WoS is prevented and the prevent is later negated, does WoS then activate or does it fizzle because at the time it was played it was prevented?
Hmm, I do see the issue there. The CNP enhancement is interrupted by the negate (Interrupt and Prevent combined), which is allowable, but after it's interrupted, the enhancement doing the interrupt (Negate) will complete and then the CBP enhancement will complete because it is CBP. You would have to interrupt and discard the CBP enhancement in order to "negate" it. The logic is still there, it just has yet to be defined.
When using a Negate on a CBP ability, the question is, does the negate work? Correct?
As mentioned, CBP abilities CBN i.e. No matter what, you cannot prevent the ability. You can interrupt and discard, and you can interrupt via a negate or standard interrupt, you just have to realize that unless you discard the CBP card, it will still activate.
That is my understanding.
Thats not quite true C_S if the character is already in battle and an enhancement is played that makes it ignored, then you have special initiative to play an interrupt. It doesn't need to be regardless of protection as long as you are interrupting that enhancement
Correct. I was referring to a character SA. Yes, there is always opportunity to interrupt or negate an ignore enhancement when it is played.
-
As mentioned, CBP abilities CBN i.e. No matter what, you cannot prevent the ability. You can interrupt and discard, and you can interrupt via a negate or standard interrupt, you just have to realize that unless you discard the CBP card, it will still activate.
Unfortunatly this is not true, you can interrupt and prevent a CBP prevented card. We had a discussion on this too long ago when I argued that you should not be able to interrupt and prevent a CBP card but I was wrong. Let me go find that thread for all. The ultimate questions that needs to be answered is how does negate really work in the stack. If a Play WoS and it prevented and the battle moves on, and later in that battle the prevent that stopped WoS is negated, why shouldn't it now activate? I know that this a different scenario than the targeting issue but I believe it still has merit.
***UPDATE*** here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/what-can-be-done-about-cannot-be-prevented/) is the thread I was talking about CBP cards can be interrupted and prevented.
-
The only time one can "rewind" with a negate is when has initiative by removal.
-
The only time one can "rewind" with a negate is when has initiative by removal.
Fixed that for you, you can negate any time you have initiative. What you can negate is slightly different. :)
-
Correct, I can play an enhancement when I've got initiative. My understanding is that the only time an enhancement can be played before another (that already hit the table) is with init by removal.
-
Ah I misundersttod, I was under the impression that when you have intiative by removal that your negates takes place after the ability removing you, I don't think it is considered played before it. Hrmm now I have to think.
-
Hey,
Cards activate when they hit the table. If something is negated when it hits the table, it stays negated even if the prevent was negated later on in battle because cards can only activate once.
It would be like recuing with Benaiah while I block with Lying spirit. If someone played a card that "Negate all special abilities except banding. Can not be negated." Lying spirit would not get to activate his ability because his ability was already activated, but it was prevented at the time of activation.
-
As mentioned, CBP abilities CBN i.e. No matter what, you cannot prevent the ability. You can interrupt and discard, and you can interrupt via a negate or standard interrupt, you just have to realize that unless you discard the CBP card, it will still activate.
The ultimate questions that needs to be answered is how does negate really work in the stack. If a Play WoS and it prevented and the battle moves on, and later in that battle the prevent that stopped WoS is negated, why shouldn't it now activate?
My thought would be that if the prevent is specifically targeted, then the negate is going to go back in time all the way to that enhancement and "erase" it. Thus meaning, the abilities work as if the prevent was never played. Most other games do not seem to have abilities that activate completely mid-battle. They prefer a "Move-Counter-move" system where at the end of the battle, the abilities then activate according to the cards played. I.e. If you played a negate on a certain enhancement (No matter when), that negate will mean when you finally do go through the abilities, it will be as if the negated card had not ability from the beginning.
I can see the argument a bit more clearly now, but I still believe that if you are negating a certain card played way previously in the battle, you are doing a bit "time-travel."
Hey,
Cards activate when they hit the table. If something is negated when it hits the table, it stays negated even if the prevent was negated later on in battle because cards can only activate once.
It would be like recuing with Benaiah while I block with Lying spirit. If someone played a card that "Negate all special abilities except banding. Can not be negated." Lying spirit would not get to activate his ability because his ability was already activated, but it was prevented at the time of activation.
Then Negates are rather pointless don't you think? The way negates have been explained to me, you are in essence re-writing the way the battle occurred. From the interpretation you are giving, then, a negate only affects the card played immediately before it, and all cards played after it because by that time, the abilities previous have all activated already, thus, there isn't anything to interrupt and prevent. It's already been done.
I don't know about you, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If a negate all special abilities card is played, it goes back in time to before any of those enhancements were played in the battle, and before the character abilities activated, and re-writes the game from there.
You can't have one and not the other if you are going to remain logical, either the "negate all" travels back in time and renders the affected cards useless (Except BTN), or it only affects the card played immediately before it and all on-going special abilities + the cards played after it.
I am prepared to clarify.
-
A "negate all" is interrupting enhancements played before it, so what Alex said doesn't apply.