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Author Topic: negating a negate and discard  (Read 4035 times)

browarod

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2012, 10:32:36 AM »
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He may be wrong as per the status quo, but it's entirely logical to think that way. DS doesn't say "you may treat this card as an evil character instead" so I'm actually of the opinion that it should be both because there's nothing in the special ability that says it loses EE status. Covenants/Curses have set a precedent for cards being multiple card types simultaneously (they are always a Cov/Curse as well as either an artifact or enhancement depending on how they are played).
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2012, 01:28:15 PM »
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I didn't say he was illogical, just wrong.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2012, 02:05:15 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 10:32:36 AM
He may be wrong as per the status quo, but it's entirely logical to think that way. DS doesn't say "you may treat this card as an evil character instead" so I'm actually of the opinion that it should be both because there's nothing in the special ability that says it loses EE status.

If a card is being treated as a character, then it is not being treated as an enhancement, because they both have different rules. There is no card (or precedent for a card) that is both a character and an enhancement.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 08, 2012, 01:28:15 PM
I didn't say he was illogical, just wrong.

This quote pretty much sums up every disagreement about rulings. Both sides' ideas make sense, but only one can be the official ruling.
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browarod

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2012, 02:29:42 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 08, 2012, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 10:32:36 AM
He may be wrong as per the status quo, but it's entirely logical to think that way. DS doesn't say "you may treat this card as an evil character instead" so I'm actually of the opinion that it should be both because there's nothing in the special ability that says it loses EE status.

If a card is being treated as a character, then it is not being treated as an enhancement, because they both have different rules. There is no card (or precedent for a card) that is both a character and an enhancement.
There's nothing in the rules that says a card can't be both, though, and nothing in DS's special ability says it loses enhancement status. That's all I'm trying to point out.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2012, 03:06:42 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 02:29:42 PM
There's nothing in the rules that says a card can't be both, though, and nothing in DS's special ability says it loses enhancement status. That's all I'm trying to point out.

That's not the way that games with rules work. If there is no rule, that doesn't mean you can just do it. The rules tell you what you can and cannot do. In the absence of a "can," it is assumed you "cannot."
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browarod

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2012, 06:03:33 PM »
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Please don't patronize me, I know how rules work. All I'm saying is there is already precedence with Covenants/Curses that cards can be multiple types, so since DS doesn't specify that it loses enhancement status, and there isn't a game rule specifically prohibiting cards from being both characters and enhancements (I say this not because of a "if the rules don't say it, I can do it" mentality but of a "there are other things you think you could do but can't because a game rule prohibits it"), it seems like it should continue to be both. I realize that's not the case because of a ruling, I'm just explaining where I'm coming from.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2012, 06:17:43 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 06:03:33 PM
Please don't patronize me, I know how rules work.

I wasn't trying to patronize you. I was trying to give clear definitions to support my point.

Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 06:03:33 PM
All I'm saying is there is already precedence with Covenants/Curses that cards can be multiple types, ...

Covenants and curses are already defined as having multiple possibilities. However, once a covenant is treated as an artifact, it is no longer treated as an enhancement.

Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 06:03:33 PM
... it seems like it should continue to be both. I realize that's not the case because of a ruling, I'm just explaining where I'm coming from.

The most relevant precedent (to me) would be captured characters. They are treated as Lost Souls, which means they are no longer treated as characters. They can no longer be targetted as a hero or EC.
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browarod

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2012, 07:10:13 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 08, 2012, 06:17:43 PM
Covenants and curses are already defined as having multiple possibilities. However, once a covenant is treated as an artifact, it is no longer treated as an enhancement.
No, but it's still treated as a Covenant, that's what I was trying to point out.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 08, 2012, 06:17:43 PM
The most relevant precedent (to me) would be captured characters. They are treated as Lost Souls, which means they are no longer treated as characters. They can no longer be targetted as a hero or EC.
Capture is a defined special ability, though, that says characters lose "character" type and gain "captured character" type. Other than this ruling, I know of no definition for "you may treat this as something else" abilities, which is why I was going based off precedence.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: negating a negate and discard
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2012, 07:23:04 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 07:10:13 PM
No, but it's still treated as a Covenant, that's what I was trying to point out.

Again, that is how Covenants are defined, as having two active identifiers once they are treated as something. Enhancements and characters are not defined that way.

Quote from: browarod on April 08, 2012, 07:10:13 PM
Capture is a defined special ability, though, that says characters lose "character" type and gain "captured character" type. Other than this ruling, I know of no definition for "you may treat this as something else" abilities, which is why I was going based off precedence.

You are talking about the "cleaned up" definition. Capture cards used to have the "treated as" wording. The fact remains that the card was no longer treated as what it was before.
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