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OK, after talking through this thread for a while, I think I've come to a conclusion of just how DS works - It starts as an EE and is played in battle. - Assuming that it isn't prevented ahead of time, then it's SA activates. - The SA of the EE negates and discards the last GE. - The SA of the EE then transforms the card into an EC. - At this point the card in battle is an EC (not an EE anymore) with 1/4 numbers. - The SA of the new EC is to negate and discard the last EC however it would NOT activate again because the card is already in battle and character's SA activate when their cards enter battle. - Because the EE is no longer in play, a regular negate enh won't work because it can't target. - However a "negate last" enh WILL work because it doesn't care about being in play. - Because the EC's SA isn't actually doing anything this battle, negating the EC won't matter. - Therefore Covenant with Death will NOT stop Deafening Spirit.Quote from: megamanlan on December 13, 2011, 08:44:49 PMDeafening Spirit1/4 Orange Evil EnhancementMark 9:25, Generic, DemonNegate and discard the Last Good Enhancement played this Battle. You may treat this card as an Evil Character until the end of battle.
The reason that I say it is able to Negate it, even though CwD can't, is because one's a prevent and one's an interrupt. While CwD can't stop it because by the time it's an EC, it's trying to prevent a SA that has already happened, Edict is not. Just as you can negate the ghost of a SA by using a "negate last," I believe you should be able to negate the ghost of an SA on a card that changed forms if you're negating the entire card.
So what if you used a "negate evil character" card? When that targets Women as Snares, does that not negate the "whole" card? Does it just negate part of it?Would that "negate evil character card" negate Deafening Spirit? What about a "negate all charactes"?It seems that a card is either negated or its not. I don't see any precedent to say that in one instance I negated the character but not the whole card and in another I did negate the whole card. Yes Sam's Edict can negate an evil card (which means any kind of evil card) and so it can target Deafening Spirit as an evil character. It negates it as an evil character. There should be no difference between that and any other card that could negate the evil character.
Quote from: galadgawyn on April 07, 2012, 01:53:59 AMSo what if you used a "negate evil character" card? When that targets Women as Snares, does that not negate the "whole" card? Does it just negate part of it?Would that "negate evil character card" negate Deafening Spirit? What about a "negate all charactes"?It seems that a card is either negated or its not. I don't see any precedent to say that in one instance I negated the character but not the whole card and in another I did negate the whole card. Yes Sam's Edict can negate an evil card (which means any kind of evil card) and so it can target Deafening Spirit as an evil character. It negates it as an evil character. There should be no difference between that and any other card that could negate the evil character. There's actually a huge difference between this scenario and something like Women as Snares. WaS doesn't change card type via its special ability, it remains what it was when it was put down - an evil character. Deafening Spirit however, does change card types, and one of the questions being asked is after Deafening Spirit turns into an evil character, is that transformation CBI? To put it another way, does Deafening Spirit turn into an evil character with no special ability, effectively making him CBI?
Deafening Spirit1/4 Orange Evil EnhancementMark 9:25, Generic, DemonNegate and discard the Last Good Enhancement played this Battle. You may treat this card as an Evil Character until the end of battle.I want you to imagine a similar card...Non-existent Spirit1/4 Orange Evil EnhancementHezekiah 11:27, Generic, DemonNegate and discard the Last Good Enhancement played this Battle. This card becomes an Evil Character.I think we would all agree that if this card survived it's first battle that it would return to territory as an EC with the SA to "negate and discard the last GE played in battle" (which would be nice against Ethiopian Treasurer or a hero with a WC-GE). This indicates to me that when a "card" becomes an EC, then the SA remains on the card (except perhaps the transforming part which would become redundant).
At the same time, I continue to think that if you played a "negate the last enh" card that it would cancel both the transforming of DS into an EC as well as the negating and discarding of the last GE.However, I'm not sure that CoD would affect things at all. It would be the SA of DS AS AN ENHANCEMENT that would negate and discard the last GE, and transform it into an EC. After that point, I would think that it would keep the SA of negating and discarding the last GE, but that ability would NOT reactivate. Therefore, DS would not really be performing any ability AS A CHARACTER, and therefore there would be nothing for CoD to negate.
To put it another way, does Deafening Spirit turn into an evil character with no special ability, effectively making him CBI?
I disagree with that statement. DS has an instant ability with a sunset. The question is not whether the ability is ongoing, but whether targeting the card itself can target what it did as an Enhancement. I believe that it does using the same mechanics that allow "negate last" to work on cards that are no longer eligible for negation under normal circumstances.
Just as you can negate the ghost of a SA by using a "negate last," I believe you should be able to negate the ghost of an SA on a card that changed forms if you're negating the entire card.
