Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If Daniel is first, he negates the banding card prior to banding, so future characters should be functionally cascade prevented (rendering the CBI irrelevant). Leaving just the original Hero(es) and the banding card in battle.

If Shadrach is first and Daniel is last, Shadrach gets kicked out of battle and everything but the bands on Meshach and Abenego should be negated, but you have 3 more characters in battle.

If Daniel is first, he negates the banding card prior to banding, so future characters should be functionally cascade prevented (rendering the CBI irrelevant). Leaving just the original Hero(es) and the banding card in battle.

The NT banding enhancement is not bringing Rack/Shack/Benny into battle; Daniel is.  And Daniel is CBN. 

There should be no "cascade prevent" past a CBN ability. 

If Cascade Negate is going to continue to be a complex pain point for most players in the game of Redemption, we need to at least acknowledge that logically you can't Cascade through CBI and CBN abilities.

Daniel's negate of the NT Enhancement happens before the banding so wouldn't the other characters not even make it to the field of battle to activate their special abilities?

Ironically, it's actually Daniel that is "preventing" his pals' abilities via "cascade prevent" in this scenario.

This is despite the fact that Daniel only negates NT enhancements, ECs, and Forts.  Daniel should never be able to prevent a hero's ability, much less Rack/Shack/Benny. 

Logic fail AND flavor fail 

but there is nothing negating shadrach, Daniel CBN brings him in, so he is in battle no matter what.  the only ability that is negated is one that in no way brings him into battle, so I don't see how the cascade affects him

I think we are saying the same thing.  I agree that Shadrach is in battle no matter what. 

My second post was more a thought exercise down the "let's assume that everything is cascaded" path.  And my conclusion was that it was both illogical and unflavorful 

Cascade negates no longer happen.     Win - Win all the way around until you lose.

Godspeed,
Mike

I keep almost writing a reply to this thread then remembering I've had this exact conversation about cascade negate interactions countless times before and wondering what the point is. Cascade needs to die.

100% agree.

Sooo...where are we with this?

Honestly, I don't know.  One of the many difficulties of Cascade Negate is that it is subjective and therefore can't really be described in objective terms.  Roughly speaking, it's "When an ability is negated, everything that happened and every card that entered play/battle as a result of the negated ability is negated, except for CBI and CBN abilities." 

If you would do a poll of the Elders, the following would probably get the most votes:

"The NT enhancement is in battle and is negated.  Daniel is returned to territory but his ability did activate.  The hero that Daniel banded to is in battle because Daniel is CBN.  That hero is negated because it was indirectly brought into battle by the NT banding enhancement, which was negated."

What would the repercussions be if we said that instead of CBN/CBI sticking we said they don't stick?  So in this example, the only thing that sticks in Daniel's special ability.

The universe explodes...so yeah, can't do that...

I will say I have very little against Cascade Negates in theory, I find that much of the time they make perfect sense to me... however I do find it strange that they can cascade through CBN abilities. If Daniel weren't CBN, it would make perfect sense to me that negating the ability that brought him in would kick everyone out... but since he is I find it kinda weird that the Negate Cascades through.

Basically I would think that the only reason why negating the first card negates the last card is because every ability between them was negated. Or to give an example, enhancement 1 brings characters 1 who brings character 2 in who brings character 3 into battle, and if enhancement 1 gets negated, that kicks character 1 out, who being kicked out, kicks out character 2, who being kicked out kicks character 3 out. But if Character 2 is CBN, then Character 3 wouldn't be kicked out, nor would he be affected in any way by the negate.

I realize how the ruling is worded, but I find it kinda strange, because my suggestion follows from the rules of negate, but the "Negate everything that can be traced back to it" doesn't seem to follow from the basic rules (at least once you include CBN), but seems kinda arbitrary.

Good grief!  Glad I’m hosting and not judging.  My brain hurts and I don’t even know what is happening with all of this!  Tyler if you make me judge this at State or Regionals, I’m ruling against you!   

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on June 12, 2019, 12:06:06 PM

Sooo...where are we with this?

RedemptionAggie’s response is going to be the official ruling, apparently.

His ruling is correct, except for one thing:  The hero that Daniel banded to would still be in battle.  Daniel is CBN, so his band sticks no matter what.