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It doesn't negate a CBN out of play card, right?
Some things I'm pretty sure about:Moses would NOT negate Provisions in set aside because set aside cards from previous phases are inherently CBN.Some things I'm pretty unsure about:I think the idea about negates NOT targeting cards, but abilities is still mainly sticking with the idea that cards naturally target things that are in play. So if a hero is being discarded by Deluge of Rain (discard all cards in battle) then they may play a "negate the last evil enh" card to stop that. In one sense this seems to be negating something in the discard pile (which is out of play) so I can understand the confusion. But another way to think about it is that when a card causes special initiative, it kind of pauses in play before going to it's final destination. This would explain why a negate (which naturally targets in play) could still affect it.Based on that understanding, I don't think that Daniel would negate Gates. But I'd like to hear the opinions of some other elders and REPs on the matter.
The negate last that can "reach" into a discard pile is completely different than set-aside.Game rules state that cards cannot target cards in set-aside area unless a card specifies. New game rule states a negate can "reach" into a d/c pile if the negate could target the card if it were still in play. It rewinds to where the card was immediately prior to it being removed from play. Set-aside cards were already in set-aside to begin with so rewinding them leaves the cards in set-aside where they can't be targeted unless a card says otherwise.Kirk
It's the same idea as a FBTN character's ability continuing to affect the battle even if it is discarded (without being interrupted).
The way I understand it is that Uzzah's protection ability is on-going even after he is discarded, and that is why an interrupt would work. Uzzah's ability doesn't follow him to the discard pile so in the case of Michael/AS, the interrupt isn't reaching into the discard pile, it's simply interrupting an on-going ability that is affecting the current battle.
I mean, we used to have it ruled that certain negates couldn't target Invoking Terror even in Special Initiative! Clear proof that this is a change in the rules.
Quote from: Redoubter on March 15, 2013, 03:07:26 PMI mean, we used to have it ruled that certain negates couldn't target Invoking Terror even in Special Initiative! Clear proof that this is a change in the rules.This is clear proof, not that anything has changed with negates, but that some people misunderstood the rules. I recall when Invoking Terror was released and there was a misconception among some in the Redemption community that it couldn't be targeted if it underdecked itself. That was never truly the case though. Even in play testing the elders I tested with knew that it could be negated if played in battle, even on a multi-color magician. The way Invoking Terror was supposed to be played did not change before or after it's release.Clearly negates cause some of the more complex situations in the game, so it's no surprise that they cause confusion.
Quote from: megamanlan on June 14, 2012, 06:07:04 PMAnd this seems to mean that Negate no longer limits to play.Not quite - In cases of special initiative, Invoking Terror is technically still in play, and can be negated.If instead of winning the battle with IT, you used it to place someone in territory beneath, then won the battle with another card, if I played Blessings, IT would not be negated.
And this seems to mean that Negate no longer limits to play.
This change is really just addressing the fact that some negates didn't use to be able to target cards that discard themselves to remove your character from battle. Now, as long as your enhancement can target the card type that removed your character, you can play the enhancement (regardless of whether the card with the removing ability is still in play).
I think the idea about negates NOT targeting cards, but abilities is still mainly sticking with the idea that cards naturally target things that are in play. So if a hero is being discarded by Deluge of Rain (discard all cards in battle) then they may play a "negate the last evil enh" card to stop that. In one sense this seems to be negating something in the discard pile (which is out of play) so I can understand the confusion. But another way to think about it is that when a card causes special initiative, it kind of pauses in play before going to it's final destination. This would explain why a negate (which naturally targets in play) could still affect it.
If Habakkuk banded into battle by a silver enhancement played off of Angel's Sword can negate Uzzah after Uzzah has discarded himself, can Daniel negate Gates of Hell? Both are out of play, and if negates target abilities and not cards, then it seems that being set-aside should not be a barrier to being negated. Negates are operating more like "instead" abilities.
