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Multi player abuse? Hecks yeah.

this has been asked before, and is a valid argument, however if i remember correctly, no one could supply an adequate answer to that other than 'it just doesnt work that way'.

i believe we suggested that as well, but all we got was something to the effect of 'it doesnt need errata, we have all played writ the same way for the past X years, why is this so hard to grasp, yata yata'.

Hey,

Quote from: BubbleBoy on January 18, 2010, 10:50:09 PM

I have a question. Even if Unholy Writ is active and in play, what is stopping you from using it multiple times in the same battle? Isn't it true that the abilities of discarded artifacts remain active through the phase? Unholy Writ doesn't seem to indicate that you can only use it once per turn or anything, does it?

You can use an ability one time per activation of the card.

So if I have The Silver Trumpets active, I can only use its SA once to band in a single hero or run away?

Quote from: SirNobody on January 19, 2010, 12:47:40 AM

Hey,

Quote from: BubbleBoy on January 18, 2010, 10:50:09 PM

I have a question. Even if Unholy Writ is active and in play, what is stopping you from using it multiple times in the same battle? Isn't it true that the abilities of discarded artifacts remain active through the phase? Unholy Writ doesn't seem to indicate that you can only use it once per turn or anything, does it?

You can use an ability one time per activation of the card.

So if I have The Silver Trumpets active, I can only use its SA once to band in a single hero or run away?

I think you can use it twice.  You are still using the ability once per activation, but you can just activate it twice.

Hey,

You can use it once per turn I'd say, with a limit of two turns.

Correct.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

There have been some incorrect rules interpretations on this thread so I'd like to clear them up.  I will not be considering any "what if" scenarios based on possible "erratas".  I also will not be considering how a certain card has been played in the past.  I'm only considering the current ruleset.

First, Pol is correct regarding the PD+DoU example.

Second,

Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2

Based on the rules for artifact activation, UW's ability remains active until artifact activation of the next turn or the end of the phase wherein UW is taken out of play.  "A human hero in battle" is an ongoing trigger.  Each time the trigger is met a human hero can be taken prisoner.  But since the trigger is ongoing, there are several things to keep in mind.  As long as there is a hero in battle the trigger stays on.  Once there is no longer a hero in battle the trigger turns off.  If the ability is still active at that point and another hero enters battle, the trigger is turned back on.  The "Discard Artifact after use" is a triggered, instant ability.  If UW is in play when the trigger is met then UW is discarded, BUT the first ongoing triggered ability stays active until the end of the phase.

Some of the examples mentioned are correct and some are incorrect.  If two human heroes are banded in together, UW cannot capture both because after capturing one hero the ongoing trigger does not turn off.  Any scenario that would turn the trigger off and then back on while the ongoing triggered ability is active would result in UW capturing more than one hero.  If UW is out of play, the ability stays active until the end of the battle phase. 

So one example that would work is if you banded a non-human hero and human hero into battle, UW captures the human hero, UW is then discarded if in play, the non-human plays an enhancement or uses some other ability to band in another human hero, UW can capture the second human hero.  There are several other scenarios that would work, too.

Third,

The Silver Trumpets
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory into battle or interrupt the battle and return your Heroes in battle to hand. May be used twice. • Identifiers: OT, Tabernacle Item, Temple Item • Verse: Numbers 10:2

"When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt," is an ongoing, triggered ability.  When does it trigger?  Each time an initiative check is performed.  Therefore, TST could be used twice during the same battle phase.  "May be used twice" is a triggered, instant ability.  Because the rules for artifact activation explicity state that limited use artifacts must be discarded after being "used up", it doesn't matter if the artifact is in play or out of play, the artifact gets discarded when the trigger is met.


So bottom line, UW could be used more than once and TST could be used twice in the same battle phase.

So bottom line, UW could be used more than once and TST could be used twice in the same battle phase.

That's nice STAMP. Unfortunately, it directly contradicts what SirNobody posted earlier, so it's not as big a help as one would like.

Hey,

Stamp, think of triggered abilities kinda like land mines.  Someone goes out into a field and puts the land mine down (activates the card with the triggered ability).  It sits there and waits until someone steps on it (the condition is satisfied) and then it blows.  Once it blows, it's used up.  If someone else walks up to it and steps on it, it's not going to blow again.  In order for the land mine to be used a second time someone has to go out into the field and repair it (activate the card a second time) before it can be used again.

Triggered artifacts work the same way, they can only "blow" once per activation.

As far as Panic Demon and Death of Unrighteous, I haven't commented on that one because I need to talk to Mike and Bryon about it first.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Would it be better if I just took out the "bottom line" statement, since the PTB might see that and completely ignore the logical treatise before it and simply say, "@#$%!  We need an errata!"    

I believe increasing the amount of colorful invective and gross over-generalizations in your post would tend to make your arguments stand out more.  

For example,

Triggered artifacts work the same way, they can only "blow" once per activation.

I completely disagree with this. Some triggered artifacts "blow" all of the time.

Now you're getting the hang of it.

i agree with stamp.

Quote from: REG

Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2

"A human hero in battle" is an ongoing trigger. 

There is a lot of confusion about this card, mainly due to the fact that it was written back before the idea of ongoing triggers was ever conceived in Redemption.

1: the "play as" is not correct.  It should say "in battle," not "during battle."
2: "a human hero in battle" is not an ongoing trigger as the card is worded, nor as the play as is currently written.  "a human hero in battle" is the TARGET of the capture ability. 
3: If we go with the current "play as" then the ongoing trigger is "when you choose."  This means you could keep trying to do it every few seconds just for kicks, until there was a capturable human hero in battle and it actually worked.  And if we keep the current play as, then we would not even need to target a hero in battle, which is really messed up.

To work as intended, it needs a better "play as/ errata."  It needs an "if" to show when the manually triggered ability is allowed to be accessed:

"If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero." 

This way it works just like Go into Captivity, Madness, Unknown Nation, etc.  "If a human hero is in battle" tells you when you can use it, and "you may discard this card to capture the hero" keeps y'all from using brutal combos that make the young'ns (and old'ns) cry.