Author Topic: Negate Drawing (Read 2982 times)

SomeKittens · « **on:** July 07, 2011, 11:10:36 PM »

RA w/ Matt to draw three. Block with Goliath (p) to negate draw abilities.

Do the lost souls drawn go back on top of draw pile as well as the other three cards?

Townsend · « **Reply #1 on:** July 07, 2011, 11:14:28 PM »

browarod · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:16:20 PM »

Related question (sorry for the hijack):

If one of the cards drawn is a Dominant (say GoYS) and I play it before they block, does it get returned to deck as well?

Josh · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:18:15 PM »

Quote from: browarod on July 08, 2011, 01:16:20 PM

Related question (sorry for the hijack):

If one of the cards drawn is a Dominant (say GoYS) and I play it before they block, does it get returned to deck as well?

Doms are CBN so they stick. I think. INE

TheJaylor · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:22:52 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on July 08, 2011, 01:18:15 PM

Quote from: browarod on July 08, 2011, 01:16:20 PM
Related question (sorry for the hijack):

If one of the cards drawn is a Dominant (say GoYS) and I play it before they block, does it get returned to deck as well?
Doms are CBN so they stick. I think. INE

This is correct. You cannot un-play a dominant.

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:42:59 PM »

AoCP is CBN, yet I remember it being ruled that if you drew and played it with a interrupt/draw/play enhancement and they later negated the draw it would also return AoCP to deck and indirectly negate it. I didn't know if this applied to Dominants, too.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:49:17 PM »

I've always heard you couldn't negate the playing of a card.

Townsend · « **Reply #7 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:52:51 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on July 08, 2011, 01:49:17 PM

I've always heard you couldn't negate the playing of a card.

Wasn't it you who asked if you drew MoF with horses and played it it would negate horses and go on top? I thought they ruled in your favor?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:55:26 PM »

I remember that, but the FBTN stuck.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:56:47 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on July 08, 2011, 01:55:26 PM

I remember that, but the FBTN stuck.

I believe FBTN is a special rule because it would create an infinite loop if it didn't stick.

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:26:37 PM »

Quote from: browarod on July 08, 2011, 01:42:59 PM

AoCP is CBN, yet I remember it being ruled that if you drew and played it with a interrupt/draw/play enhancement and they later negated the draw it would also return AoCP to deck and indirectly negate it. I didn't know if this applied to Dominants, too.

Whomever made that ruling was mistaken. AoCp cannot be negated, even indirectly. Negating the draw does not put it back on the deck.

browarod · « **Reply #11 on:** July 08, 2011, 11:36:18 PM »

Does negating the draw return a non-CBN card to the deck and indirectly negate it? What about CBP/CBI?

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2011, 12:12:32 AM »

Quote from: browarod on July 08, 2011, 11:36:18 PM

Does negating the draw return a non-CBN card to the deck and indirectly negate it?

Yes.

Quote from: browarod on July 08, 2011, 11:36:18 PM

What about CBP/CBI?

CBP, yes because CBP can be interrupted or negated after it's played.

CBI, no, it cannot be indirectly interrupted either.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2011, 01:26:39 PM »

What about Claudia to ET and then play Abraham's Servant to Ur?

It seems that you are saying AStU would return to hand but it has been ruled that it stays. The card is not CBI but what about the rule that says you can't interrupt play abilities? It was ruled by (Schaef?) that you also cannot interrupt the fact a card was played by normal intiative.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #14 on:** July 11, 2011, 02:37:37 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on July 11, 2011, 01:26:39 PM

What about Claudia to ET and then play Abraham's Servant to Ur?

It seems that you are saying AStU would return to hand but it has been ruled that it stays. The card is not CBI but what about the rule that says you can't interrupt play abilities? It was ruled by (Schaef?) that you also cannot interrupt the fact a card was played by normal intiative.

Negating the drawing of a played card will indirectly negate the card and put it on top of deck, unless either the draw or the card itself is CBN/CBI. Negating the playing of a card by a play special ability (e.g. ET's ability) cannot happen after it has occurred (i.e. play abilities are inherently CBI).

There has been a couple of proposals to make the drawing of cards inherently CBI, since it can be not only confusing, but can tempt players to cheat, if they "put back" cards they didn't draw when a draw is negated. However, it was decided that drawing is already very powerful, and that making it CBI would only make it worse. So its part of the game that we have to live with for now.

spicynumber1 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2011, 03:10:45 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 11, 2011, 02:37:37 PM

Negating the drawing of a played card will indirectly negate the card and put it on top of deck, unless either the draw or the card itself is CBN/CBI. Negating the playing of a card by a play special ability (e.g. ET's ability) cannot happen after it has occurred (i.e. play abilities are inherently CBI).

There has been a couple of proposals to make the drawing of cards inherently CBI, since it can be not only confusing, but can tempt players to cheat, if they "put back" cards they didn't draw when a draw is negated. However, it was decided that drawing is already very powerful, and that making it CBI would only make it worse. So its part of the game that we have to live with for now.

"(i.e. play abilities are inherently CBI)."
vs.
"However, it was decided that drawing is already very powerful, and that making it CBI would only make it worse."

These statements seem to contradict eachother.
So are all play the next enhancment abilities CBI or not...?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2011, 03:23:59 PM »

Play abilities (i.e. You may play the next enhancement, holder may play the next enhancement, etc.) are inherently CBI. So if I attack with Ethiopian Treasurer and play an enhancement, and you block with King of Tyrus, the enhancement is negated if it can be, but it doesn't go back to hand, since KoT can't negate ET's play ability.

Draw abilities are not inherently CBI. So if I attack with Matthew and draw 3, and you block with King of Tyrus, the drawn cards go back to where they came from. This is true even if the card drawn was already played, unless the card played is CBN/CBI. What this means if you block my Matthew with Herod the Great, and I play Preaching the Truth which I drew with Matthew, then you play Mask of Fear, then PtT goes back on top of the deck, along with the other drawn cards.

The confusing part is cards like Reach of Desperation or the various Horsey weapons, which have both draw and play abilities. In those cases, the two abilities are separate abilities on the same card, and are treated separately along the above guidelines.

Does that make sense? If not, let me know what doesn't, and I'll do what I can to help.

spicynumber1 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2011, 03:27:16 PM »

I understand now, thank you.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2011, 08:50:13 PM »

What happens when I play Abe's Servant on Isaac?

Isaac (Pa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 6 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: May use any good enhancement with a reference from Genesis 21 through Genesis 35. • Play As: May use any good Genesis 21-35 enhancement [use other enhancements]. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Patriarch, Prophet • Verse: Genesis 21:2-3 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Uncommon)
See also:
• Use Other Enhancements

Abraham's Servant to Ur (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 2 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: All special abilities except banding on characters and enhancements, except this one, are negated. Battle is determined by the numbers. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 24:9-10 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
See also:
• Negate

Professoralstad · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2011, 11:29:33 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on July 11, 2011, 08:50:13 PM

What happens when I play Abe's Servant on Isaac?

Isaac (Pa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 6 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: May use any good enhancement with a reference from Genesis 21 through Genesis 35. • Play As: May use any good Genesis 21-35 enhancement [use other enhancements]. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Patriarch, Prophet • Verse: Genesis 21:2-3 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Uncommon)
See also:
• Use Other Enhancements

Abraham's Servant to Ur (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 2 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: All special abilities except banding on characters and enhancements, except this one, are negated. Battle is determined by the numbers. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 24:9-10 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
See also:
• Negate

Unless there is a blue Hero in battle, Abe's Servant is discarded for lack of having a Hero that can use it in battle, but it is not negated because it was legally played. Thus it would be BTN w/banding with Isaac being unable to play any enhancements but white.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #20 on:** July 11, 2011, 11:50:30 PM »

So it's discarded, and not sent back to hand?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2011, 10:11:36 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on July 11, 2011, 11:50:30 PM

So it's discarded, and not sent back to hand?

Correct.

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Author Topic: Negate Drawing (Read 2982 times)

browarod

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