Author Topic: Negate  (Read 3720 times)

Offline Jeremystair

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Negate
« on: January 16, 2017, 08:36:12 AM »
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If I take Peter out to rescue a lost soul Peter says you may draw one the negate demons and opponent produces foul spirits which says negate Heroes what happens? I thought the negates are ongoing and their interrupts as well as prevent.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Negate
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 08:52:15 AM »
+1
Peter would negate Foul Spirit's ability (in other words, he interrupts and prevents FS's negating ability from activating). If FS's ability was Cannot be Prevented or Cannot be Negated, then FS's special ability would still work and he would negate Peter's ability.
Overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and don't love your life to the death!

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Negate
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 09:30:31 AM »
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So foul spirits negate can't interrupt and negate and prevent Peter's ability?

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Negate
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 09:42:33 AM »
+1
No, because it is prevented before it has a chance to interrupt.

kariusvega

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Re: Negate
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 01:25:48 PM »
+1
Correct. Prevention, similarly to other ongoing abilities(immunity, ignore, protection), take precedence in the order played.

Peter prevents (ongoing) the demon from interrupting(instantly prevented) and preventing him (negating him) because his ability was active before the demon's.

So vice versa if the demon was in battle first Peter would be negated, unless you interrupted the demon with say an enhancement then banded in Peter to negate the demon while the ongoing prevent aspect of the demons negate is interrupted. That's why there is cbi cbp etc so in certain circumstances depending on the order played cards cannot be prevented by say Moses or interrupted by say an interrupt or negate enhancement after being played. Where as a cannot be prevented ability can be interrupted after being played but cannot be prevented only before being played

I feel like there should be a weekly land of redemption article just explaining cbp cbn cbi

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Negate
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 08:48:05 AM »
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Peter would negate Foul Spirit's ability (in other words, he interrupts and prevents FS's negating ability from activating). If FS's ability was Cannot be Prevented or Cannot be Negated, then FS's special ability would still work and he would negate Peter's ability.
That is not how negate is defined anymore.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Negate
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2017, 10:12:56 AM »
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How is Define now?

Offline Watchman

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Re: Negate
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2017, 08:48:55 PM »
+1
How is Define now?

I'm not sure what Polarius means, perhaps he's giving a technical definition, but the newest edition of the REG says this about Negate (How to Play):

"A negate ability interrupts all specified special abilities and prevents them from reactivating. A negate ability also prevents targeted special abilities from ever being able to activate."

In regards to your original question about Peter negating Foul Spirit, the second part of the above definition is the most applicable to this scenario.  Maybe this is what Polarius was referring to.
Overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and don't love your life to the death!

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Negate
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 07:41:50 PM »
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We did away with that definition ages ago because of exactly this kind of confusion. No idea how that made it back into the documents. Or maybe the documents were never altered and it was just one of those things you had to be in the know on.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Negate
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 02:43:01 PM »
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I have another negate question. Do you have to have initiative in order to play a negate?

If I play play a 10/10 hero and my opponent  plays a 4/4 evil character and he plays a card that lets him search his deck but does not help him with numbers can I negate that? Or if he plays a capture card like net and captures a  hero in my territory can I negate that even though I still don't have initiative?

And does the same thing go for interrupts?

kariusvega

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Re: Negate
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2017, 02:49:00 PM »
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No special initiative only happens when your last character in battle is being removed by an opponents special ability which you may be able to interrupt or negate.

And obviously if you are still winning you don't get regular initiative

Offline thejambi

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Re: Negate
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2017, 11:34:31 PM »
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Hi all. I got out my cards out again and I have always wanted to see a good example of something about Negate... I have always wondered, would it be possible for something like this to happen: I play an enhancement that causes me to draw a card, so I do that and I get a Dominant, and I play it right then and there which lets me discard one of the Evil Characters in battle. Then, opponent plays an enhancement that negates my previous enhancement, the one that gave me the Dominant I just played. What is the ruling on something like that?
-Zach
Titus 1:9

Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Negate
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2017, 08:15:16 AM »
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I think because the dominant is instantaneous so you don't get a chance to play a card even when you have special initiative. But it's a great question and I'm not sure about the answer so hopefully someone else will answer the question with the real answer.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 02:23:50 PM by Jeremystair »

kariusvega

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Re: Negate
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2017, 01:36:46 PM »
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Dominants are cbn

Offline thejambi

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Re: Negate
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2017, 02:28:40 PM »
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The last enhancement in the example I gave wants to negate the previous enhancement (the card that allowed the drawing of the dominant), not the dominant itself.
-Zach
Titus 1:9

kariusvega

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Re: Negate
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2017, 02:57:09 PM »
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Exactly so everything except the things which are cbi or cbn can be negated

Cards drawn return, dominant stays in dc pile

Offline thejambi

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Re: Negate
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2017, 03:20:20 PM »
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So, even though the Dominant card would have been returned to the deck (because it was just drawn, but the draw ability was negated), any of the cards drawn by the draw ability that have since been put into play are not affected by the negate of the draw ability?
-Zach
Titus 1:9

kariusvega

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Re: Negate
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2017, 03:41:27 PM »
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No. The dominant and any other CBN abilities would remain, as they cannot be negated.

The others would return, as they may be negated.


Offline thejambi

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Re: Negate
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2017, 03:49:18 PM »
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Unless you write a little longer explanation of how exactly it works, I will feel like you're misunderstanding my question :)

When the enhancement negates the draw ability, are you saying that it then also attempts to negate any cards that were drawn by that ability and have already been put in play?

Edit: I think that if a card is played after being drawn by a draw ability, and the draw ability is then negated, nothing happens to the played card. Only cards still in the player's hand are returned to the deck.

From the REG: "If a draw ability is negated, return the drawn card(s) in hand to the deck in their previous order. If this cannot be done, shuffle the drawn cards together and return them to the previous location."

The REG only specifies "drawn card(s) in hand" so I guess if you're able to play one, what's done is done. What I'm talking about doesn't have anything to do with wether or not the played card is CBN.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 04:36:58 PM by thejambi »
-Zach
Titus 1:9

Offline Watchman

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Re: Negate
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2017, 04:43:16 PM »
+1
Unless you write a little longer explanation of how exactly it works, I will feel like you're misunderstanding my question :)

When the enhancement negates the draw ability, are you saying that it then also attempts to negate any cards that were drawn by that ability and have already been put in play?

Here's how the scenario would play out: your opponent plays a negate card (a negate interrupts an ability then prevents it from occurring) to undo the draw ability, but the dominant remains in the discard pile (because it was a played card and all played cards are cannot be interrupted) and the other evil character still remains discarded since all dominant abilities are cannot be negated. So if the only card that was drawn was the dominant then your opponent's negate card would, for this scenario, be an effectively pointless play.

To answer your question more directly, the negate attempts to interrupt and prevent the draw ability, not the played cards necessarily, but the negate of the draw would then cascade negate any of the abilities on the played cards unless those abilities are CBI or CBN.

Did this answer your question?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 04:53:21 PM by Watchman492 »
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Offline thejambi

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Re: Negate
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2017, 10:14:00 PM »
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Here's how the scenario would play out: your opponent plays a negate card (a negate interrupts an ability then prevents it from occurring) to undo the draw ability, but the dominant remains in the discard pile (because it was a played card and all played cards are cannot be interrupted) and the other evil character still remains discarded since all dominant abilities are cannot be negated. So if the only card that was drawn was the dominant then your opponent's negate card would, for this scenario, be an effectively pointless play.

To answer your question more directly, the negate attempts to interrupt and prevent the draw ability, not the played cards necessarily, but the negate of the draw would then cascade negate any of the abilities on the played cards unless those abilities are CBI or CBN.

Did this answer your question?

Thank you! Ever since I first tried playing, I’ve wondered about how this would work.

So, if it was some other card played that could be negated, it would be? Just wondering what the general rule would be for this crazy but probably rare instance. So it would negate the played cards, but would it also discard them or anything?
-Zach
Titus 1:9

kariusvega

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Re: Negate
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2017, 02:12:22 PM »
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play abilities are cbi, cards played are not necessarily

Cbn is cbn so to answer your original question again with the same answer, the dom is cbn and goes to dc if played even after the draw is negated

Offline Watchman

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Re: Negate
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2017, 10:07:19 PM »
+1
So, if it was some other card played that could be negated, it would be? Just wondering what the general rule would be for this crazy but probably rare instance. So it would negate the played cards, but would it also discard them or anything?

Yes, because of the cascade negate, unless the ability was CBI or CBN.  And if you still had the drawn card in your hand and didn't play it, but then your opponent negates the draw ability, then you put the card back on the top of your deck, and the ability that was played on the card that you played after the draw (assuming it was a "interrupt the battle, draw one card, play the next enhancement" situation) is cascade negated (again, unless the ability is CBI or CBN). 

And to answer the second part of your question, if the card was played (assuming it is a different card than the dominant scenario) it remains in battle (since played cards are CBI) but the ability on that played card is still negated (unless the ability is CBI or CBN).

Clear as mud? 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 10:10:17 PM by Watchman492 »
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Offline thejambi

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Re: Negate
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2017, 10:16:33 PM »
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Clear as mud? 

Thanks again! The mud is clear!

For anyone curious, here’s an example of the scenario I was asking about, from the I/J decks:

- Player Good Guy starts rescue attempt with Andrew. Player Bad Guy blocks with Unclean Spirit.
- Unclean Spirit “May band to a human Evil Character” and so he bands to Emperor Tiberius.
- Emperor Tiberius “Look at opponent’s hand and under deck a Dominant from that hand.” - Bad Guy looks at Good Guy’s hand and behold, there are no Dominants.
- Good Guy has initiative (losing by numbers) because Emperor Tiberius is no joke (10/11). Good Guy plays Loaves and Fishes, which makes each player draw 2 cards.
- Good Guy still has initiative (still losing by numbers), but one of the cards he just drew was Angel of the Lord, so he plays it to discard Emperor Tiberius.
- Bad Guy now only has Unclean Spirit in the battle and has initiative due to losing by numbers. Bad Guy plays Evil Strength to negate and discard the last good enhancement played in battle. So the draw ability on Loaves and Fishes is negated.
- Bad Guy returns the cards he drew (both are still in hand) to the deck. Good Guy can return one of his cards because it’s still in hand, but the other has been played…

Then Good Guy wonders how he is supposed to know what to do in this situation.

Sounds like the ruling is “negate any cards drawn by the targeted draw ability that have since been played.”

Let me know if I’ve got something wrong in the example. Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 10:18:52 PM by thejambi »
-Zach
Titus 1:9

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Negate
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2017, 01:23:38 AM »
+1
Cards that cannot be interrupted or negated in some way are the exception to being undrawn when a draw is negated provided they've already been played. Without this quirk of the rules, you'd have infinite loops.
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