Author Topic: Nebi and Throne (Read 5429 times)

Lex1122 · « **on:** June 27, 2018, 09:18:58 AM »

The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.

Just to make sure if I take out Nebi n go n get Swift horses the throne can’t trigger?

fyero · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:37:09 AM »

That is my understanding. Throne’s ability won’t check until all character abilities are finished. So if you blocked with Neb and got B’s Banquet and killed you self, Throne would not trigger because no evil character is there to be considered blocking at the time it’s ability goes off.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:42:42 AM »

I thought you were still considered blocked by the last EC that entered battle if there are no EC in battle after all EC that are blocking have entered battle, meaning that throne would still activate

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #3 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:45:55 AM »

Quote from: fyero on June 27, 2018, 09:37:09 AM

That is my understanding. Throne’s ability won’t check until all character abilities are finished. So if you blocked with Neb and got B’s Banquet and killed you self, Throne would not trigger because no evil character is there to be considered blocking at the time it’s ability goes off.

I don't think that's true. Banquet will go off before Throne but Throne should still eventually trigger because the block did occur.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:52:05 AM »

Ok so swift horses is a weapon and when throne looks to trigger, it shouldn’t be able to because nebi now has a weapon on him. Right?

Lex1122 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:55:42 AM »

By the way the first post is a quote from SIRNOBODY. A elder so idk

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #6 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:57:07 AM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on June 27, 2018, 09:52:05 AM

Ok so swift horses is a weapon and when throne looks to trigger, it shouldn’t be able to because nebi now has a weapon on him. Right?

correct, if theres a weapon in battle when throne tried to trigger, which is after the EC blocks, then it cant trigger

Lex1122 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:59:10 AM »

Just to be 10000 percent sure. Nebi enters battle without a weapon. He then searches out Swift horses. At that point TTOD doesn’t trigger?

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2018, 10:03:41 AM »

as long as he plays it with his ability, then throne wont trigger

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2018, 10:23:59 AM »

If Nebby blocks and adds Swift Horses to battle then Throne does not trigger.

If Nebby blocks and adds Bel's Banquet then Throne does trigger after the Nebby is discarded (however, if Nebby was the only EC the opponent had in play then the X would be 0 since it checks after Banquet completes).

fyero · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2018, 11:35:25 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on June 27, 2018, 10:23:59 AM

If Nebby blocks and adds Swift Horses to battle then Throne does not trigger.

If Nebby blocks and adds Bel's Banquet then Throne does trigger after the Nebby is discarded (however, if Nebby was the only EC the opponent had in play then the X would be 0 since it checks after Banquet completes).

So the opponent would draw nothing but still get to play an enhancement?

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2018, 11:36:31 AM »

if there is a weapon in battle, throne does nothing

The Guardian · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2018, 11:38:04 AM »

Quote from: fyero on June 27, 2018, 11:35:25 AM

Quote from: The Guardian on June 27, 2018, 10:23:59 AM
If Nebby blocks and adds Swift Horses to battle then Throne does not trigger.

If Nebby blocks and adds Bel's Banquet then Throne does trigger after the Nebby is discarded (however, if Nebby was the only EC the opponent had in play then the X would be 0 since it checks after Banquet completes).

So the opponent would draw nothing but still get to play an enhancement?

Yes.

SEB · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2018, 11:42:43 AM »

Quote from: fyero on June 27, 2018, 11:35:25 AM

Quote from: The Guardian on June 27, 2018, 10:23:59 AM
If Nebby blocks and adds Swift Horses to battle then Throne does not trigger.

If Nebby blocks and adds Bel's Banquet then Throne does trigger after the Nebby is discarded (however, if Nebby was the only EC the opponent had in play then the X would be 0 since it checks after Banquet completes).

So the opponent would draw nothing but still get to play an enhancement?

to add clarification, Theguardian was adding a clarification to a scenario: if Nebby is discard and it was the Only EC, then X would be 0 and you would play an enhancement, but if your opponent had The Serpent (promo) in territory, you would draw 3 and play and enhancement

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2018, 02:39:48 PM »

What does "has a weapon" mean? If it means the weapon is equipped, Swift Horses wouldn't be equipped to Nebby until after battle, so Throne would still trigger. ORCID uses "equipped" in the play as.

If Throne was worded similar to King Achish (i.e., "no evil weapon is in battle"), that would be clear.

The Guardian · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2018, 02:48:08 PM »

Quote

What does "has a weapon" mean? If it means the weapon is equipped, Swift Horses wouldn't be equipped to Nebby until after battle, so Throne would still trigger. ORCID uses "equipped" in the play as.

While I agree that "has a weapon" could suggest the weapon is equipped, I'm not certain it must (or should) mean that. Splitting hairs on old wording (while sometimes necessary) should be avoided if possible IMO.

SEB · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2018, 03:29:45 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on June 27, 2018, 02:48:08 PM

Quote
What does "has a weapon" mean? If it means the weapon is equipped, Swift Horses wouldn't be equipped to Nebby until after battle, so Throne would still trigger. ORCID uses "equipped" in the play as.

While I agree that "has a weapon" could suggest the weapon is equipped, I'm not certain it must (or should) mean that. Splitting hairs on old wording (while sometimes necessary) should be avoided if possible IMO.

ORCID: Play As: If your purple king is blocked and no Evil Character in battle is equipped with a weapon, you may draw X and play an O.T. purple Enhancement.

I think this is what Aggie was saying. The ORCID clarifies the above ambiguous language so that we know that the weapon must be equip. In the example above, the weapon is not yet equipped.

Josh · « **Reply #17 on:** June 27, 2018, 03:35:12 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on June 27, 2018, 02:48:08 PM

While I agree that "has a weapon" could suggest the weapon is equipped, I'm not certain it must (or should) mean that. Splitting hairs on old wording (while sometimes necessary) should be avoided if possible IMO.

When I hear "has a weapon", I think "the weapon belongs to the Evil Character". An EC in battle that plays an EE (weapon or not) does not "have" the EE as it sits in battle. An EC in territory equipped with a weapon "has" a weapon, even though it isn't being used.

Seems like Nebby searching for Swift Horses and adding it to battle and Throne still triggering should only be confusing for those who don't know or understand the new Equip rules. (Which I think are well done and intuitive)

I know we want to nerf Throne into oblivion and Throne has terrible wording, but I still think best practice is to make Redemption definitions match English definitions as closely and as often as possible.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2018, 03:37:07 PM »

why can't a weapon just count as equipped as soon as its played, in or outside of battle. to me its splitting hairs to have it any other way, making the game even less intuitive.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2018, 03:40:44 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 27, 2018, 03:37:07 PM

why can't a weapon just count as equipped as soon as its played, in or outside of battle. to me its splitting hairs to have it any other way, making the game even less intuitive.

If it counted as equipped when played you would have to specify which EC is was played on in case of a band and keep track of it until the end of the battle. It's much simply just to have it be a normal enhancement until it's retained after battle.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #20 on:** June 27, 2018, 03:45:24 PM »

I think its simpler to chose which EC it goes on it battle that to have it be equipped only outside of battle. does it become unequipped in battle? I though that weapons were always attached to their characters now

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #21 on:** June 27, 2018, 04:08:48 PM »

Once equipped, weapons remain equipped until removed (or unequipped in battle resolution). However, during battle, equip currently only happens by an ability or during battle resolution.

Equipping a weapon comes with some drawbacks - it's an R&D target and the weapon can't move to another character and follows the rules for equipped weapons - so I'm not sure we'd want to automatically equip weapons. And I'm not sure we want to leave it up to player's choice during battle, either.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #22 on:** June 27, 2018, 04:17:42 PM »

why not simplify it. when you play a weapon on a character and the character isn't already equipped with a weapon, the weapon is equipped. the weapon remains equipped and follows the character everywhere unless they are captured. this would make it so much simpler. how many times does it actually come up you are playing a weapon in battle and wither it is equipped or not actually come up? or how many times are you switching weapons between characters in battle. just have it equipped when played and stay there, so much simpler

Jeremystair · « **Reply #23 on:** June 27, 2018, 04:21:09 PM »

That wouldn't make it simple. What if I have two characters in battle then I have to choose which one it's equipped to and if you discard that evil character the weapon would follow that evil character and now my other evil character can't use it. that's why it's a good idea to have it equipped it after battle in battle resolution. I also don't think you can swap weapons between evil characters after battle anymore.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 27, 2018, 04:23:56 PM »

So again no biggie but two people who I believe and respect n the game have two different opinions on how this played. The guardian says it works. Redemption Aggie says pretty much it doesn’t. Yesterday the guardian and Gabe differed to Aggie. Should we all do the same today? Or is the there gonna be an Orcid change?

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Author Topic: Nebi and Throne (Read 5429 times)