Author Topic: Nebby + Horses adding nerg to battle (Read 5701 times)

browarod · « **Reply #25 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:21:54 PM »

Household Idols actually just says "good banding cards" not "band abilities."

I guess I just don't see where the rules don't say exactly what to do with this. Is it an ability that adds a character to battle? Not at face value. Okay! Then it goes at the regular time. If the ability then does something that goes against the rules (Add a character to battle before the "add a character to battle phase" of the OoO) that's fine because that's what special abilities do, lol.

Redoubter · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:49:16 PM »

Except it specifically says adding characters to battle, not 'band'. If the rules specifically disallow something from happening, or dictates that they happen in a specific order, that is the way it happens. Special abilities do let you do things that the rules don't normally (like having multiple characters in battle), but the rules still dictate how that happens. In this case, it dictates when characters can be added to battle. In the case of drawing, it dictates at what point you have to stop drawing, no matter what a card says. That's what the rules do.

I also don't see where the rules don't say exactly what to do with this, but unlike you, I don't take the 'at face value' bit to be allowable. If it adds a character to battle, it adds a character to battle, and the rules say you cannot do it then. They are very specific. If that needs to change, that is one thing, but it is crystal clear.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2014, 09:03:11 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 12, 2014, 06:41:58 PM

At the very least, it is an ability that adds a character to battle, which must wait until after weapons per the order of ability activation.

Nebuchadnezzar does not have 'add evil character battle'/ "May band.." written on the card so the OoO exceptions for characters do not apply. Nebuchadnezzar activates first, regardless of the O.T crimson card, and then horses draws and you can play and enhancement on Nergal.

Redoubter · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2014, 09:13:32 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on February 12, 2014, 09:03:11 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on February 12, 2014, 06:41:58 PM
At the very least, it is an ability that adds a character to battle, which must wait until after weapons per the order of ability activation.

Nebuchadnezzar does not have 'add evil character battle'/ "May band.." written on the card so the OoO exceptions for characters do not apply. Nebuchadnezzar activates first, regardless of the O.T crimson card, and then horses draws and you can play and enhancement on Nergal.

The order of operations does not specify ability names that apply. It is literally any ability that adds a character to battle (including choose the blocker/rescuer, which are also not "add evil character"/"may band" but are still included). It is the effect that is referred to in the order, not the abilities. You cannot add a character, of any type or to either side of the battle, until the weapon activates, per the order.

browarod · « **Reply #29 on:** February 12, 2014, 09:19:43 PM »

It could add a character to battle, but is also could not, that's the whole point. You don't know when it activates which one it's going to be (it could be neither if you don't add anything to battle or if you add the searched thing to hand). Yes, the OoO says cards that add a character to battle go after weapons, but it also says that other abilities go before weapons. Considering 4 of the 5 possible results of Neb's ability fall under the second category, I don't know why you want the default to be the timing of the 5th option. Adding a character to battle before a weapon resolves is just as much a violation of the OoO as adding an enhancement to battle after a weapon, so either way the OoO is going to be mad at you. In the end you have to pick one or the other to go with and the Elders have consistently chosen to have the ability carry out before weapons with other abilities. I don't see where a change is necessary but maybe I'm just missing it, lol.

Also it's interesting to be on the other side of a ruling debate from you. It doesn't happen often.

Redoubter · « **Reply #30 on:** February 12, 2014, 09:24:52 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 12, 2014, 09:19:43 PM

Adding a character to battle before a weapon resolves is just as much a violation of the OoO as adding an enhancement to battle after a weapon, so either way the OoO is going to be mad at you.

I'm saying you can't do either, not that there is an option to do the second, so the anthropomorphized rule will have no beef with me

It does not matter if X possibilities are okay, it is the one that is against the rules that I say cannot be done, that's the point. I'm also not saying that you default it to after the weapon, but that as the rules read now, using it prior to the weapon (which you can) just means that the crimson card cannot be a character. Hopefully the point I'm trying to make now is clearer, since you seemed to have a different understanding of what I'm trying to say

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #31 on:** February 12, 2014, 09:42:12 PM »

But what if you didn't know? Sure in this case you can choose when to activate it, but what if the card didn't give you a choice.

Evil Spawn says something along the lines of "Reveal the bottom card of your deck. Add it to hand or battle." Does this mean that you can't add an evil character to battle because it's in the wrong step? Or does the character just wait around until it is the right time?

Perhaps the rules should be clarified somewhat, but whatever it does say, Adding cards to battle when they could be either a character or enhancement should happen at their primary place, not the banding section.

browarod · « **Reply #32 on:** February 12, 2014, 09:46:55 PM »

If you can't do either then Neb just misfires because he misses the timing of both, which would make him useless, lol.

The rules don't say that you can't add a character to battle before weapons activate, it just says abilities that specifically add characters to battle get queued after weapons. Neb doesn't specifically add characters to battle, though he has the possibility to, so 1. I don't see any reason to restrict him to resolving after the weapon, and 2. I see no reason why you can't choose to add a character if he resolves before the weapon. Nothing is being restricted in any way by the OoO.

If we take your ruling to be correct then the following hypothetical would be true: If there is a character made with an identifier "if drawn during the battle phase, you may add this to the battle on the appropriate side" then any draw ability could add a character to battle (because the possibility exists to add this character to battle since the card exists) so then, by your definition, all draw abilities must wait to resolve until after any weapons because they could add a character to battle.

I feel like interpreting rules based on what ifs, like you propose, will eventually lead to all abilities always being carried out after all other abilities just in case they add a character to battle and nothing will ever get done (or, we'll end up with "add character to battle" abilities happening first instead of last, haha).

Redoubter · « **Reply #33 on:** February 12, 2014, 10:37:04 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 12, 2014, 09:46:55 PM

If we take your ruling to be correct then the following hypothetical would be true: If there is a character made with an identifier "if drawn during the battle phase, you may add this to the battle on the appropriate side" then any draw ability could add a character to battle (because the possibility exists to add this character to battle since the card exists) so then, by your definition, all draw abilities must wait to resolve until after any weapons because they could add a character to battle.

You need to stick with the example ChristianSoldier used, that one is far too contrived to be relevant

His not only is a real card (and one that is realistic), but is a great counter-concept.

Hobbit...not...sure what you mean...that is one crazy quote block, and it doesn't look like your actual post got through.

Like I have been saying, I have been speaking of the rules as they are. If we are going to make the rules match what is being stated in your posts, then we need to change the order to:

There are two types of special abilities that define how a special ability is carried out: Ongoing Abilities and Instant Abilities. When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained abilities), perform the abilities in this order:
 First, complete all special abilities in the order written on the card except ~~those that add a character to the battle~~banding, choose the rescuer, and choose the blocker. Note that some special abilities can happen together even though they may be separated by a period. Second, if the card is a character with either a gained ability or a weapon-class enhancement, then activate the gained abilities in the order gained. Finally, activate the special abilities on the carried weapon-class enhancement.
 Complete banding abilities.
 Complete any Choose Blocker or Rescuer abilities.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 13, 2014, 07:17:20 AM »

Show us a Nebuchadnezzar that says "band" or "add a character to battle' and you are correct.

On a side note: Why does Spy+Warriors spear work? Spies ability is completed and withdraws before the weapon has time to activate right?

Redoubter · « **Reply #35 on:** February 13, 2014, 07:38:31 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on February 13, 2014, 07:17:20 AM

Show us a Nebuchadnezzar that says "band" or "add a character to battle' and you are correct.

Add to battle has the ability to add a character to battle. And you may have missed my earlier response to you, but that rule does not specify abilities, it specifies effects. Otherwise, choose the rescuer and choose the blocker would happen at that stage, but they don't because they add a character to battle. Neb's ability can do that, that's the point here. That part of the rule does not target specific abilities (like in the HHI or Hosea examples), it affects all abilities that have the effect to add a character to battle.

So am I correct now

Quote from: TheHobbit on February 13, 2014, 07:17:20 AM

On a side note: Why does Spy+Warriors spear work? Spies ability is completed and withdraws before the weapon has time to activate right?

Nothing to do with this ruling, but I don't like that well-established ruling either, since the weapon never had the activation period before being removed from battle.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #36 on:** February 13, 2014, 07:54:04 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 13, 2014, 07:38:31 AM

Quote from: TheHobbit on February 13, 2014, 07:17:20 AM
Show us a Nebuchadnezzar that says "band" or "add a character to battle' and you are correct.

Add to battle has the ability to add a character to battle. And you may have missed my earlier response to you, but that rule does not specify abilities, it specifies effects. Otherwise, choose the rescuer and choose the blocker would happen at that stage, but they don't because they add a character to battle. Neb's ability can do that, that's the point here. That part of the rule does not target specific abilities (like in the HHI or Hosea examples), it affects all abilities that have the effect to add a character to battle.

So am I correct now

Except those are two different cases: choose the rescuer/blocker MUST add a character to battle; therefore, it has to go where that ability is listed in the OoO (it has no other options). Nebuchadnezzar can add 2 different things with his ability - add an enhancement or add a character. As such, since there is no way to tell what he will add before he adds it, and abilities cannot be stopped in the middle, he must complete (whether he is adding a character or enhancement).

browarod · « **Reply #37 on:** February 13, 2014, 09:47:51 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 12, 2014, 10:37:04 PM

Quote from: browarod on February 12, 2014, 09:46:55 PM
If we take your ruling to be correct then the following hypothetical would be true: If there is a character made with an identifier "if drawn during the battle phase, you may add this to the battle on the appropriate side" then any draw ability could add a character to battle (because the possibility exists to add this character to battle since the card exists) so then, by your definition, all draw abilities must wait to resolve until after any weapons because they could add a character to battle.

You need to stick with the example ChristianSoldier used, that one is far too contrived to be relevant His not only is a real card (and one that is realistic), but is a great counter-concept.

Okay, then use that one. You never actually posted a refutation of it.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 13, 2014, 09:50:24 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 13, 2014, 07:38:31 AM

That part of the rule does not target specific abilities (like in the HHI or Hosea examples), it affects all abilities that have the effect to add a character to battle.

If 'add a character to battle' ability='band' ability then, yes, an add a character to battle ability is target-able as a band ability or an add to battle ability. These abilities are the same thing as far as the rules are concerned. What is not the same is an ability that adds a card to battle and abilities that add characters to battle. No where in the quotes you have posted on this thread does it say that if I add any card to battle I have banded with that card. So an add to battle ability that does not specify a character is not literally an add a character to battle ability or a band ability. Besides, no where in the OoO quote you posted says anything about effects , but only implies that abilities must be written explicitly on the card in order to be abilities. Since OoO operates under the assumption that abilities, not effects, dictate order it follows that Nebuchadnezzar's effect of adding a character to battle is not restricted. You would have to make a distinction that adding "add card to battle "= "add a character to battle"="band" band ability in order for OoO to restrict Nebs ability. Or you could say if the "effects" are the same then the "abilities" are the same but that would mean immune and protect would be able to be targeted as the same thing.

Redoubter · « **Reply #39 on:** February 13, 2014, 01:37:04 PM »

Hobbit, reread the OoO again, and see that if your determination that it must be specifically an ability "add a character to battle", then you could band, CTR, or CTB. It is the effect of adding a character to battle that it refers to, not any specific ability. It refers to all abilities that have the effect of adding a character to battle, saying you just cannot do it until the other abilities and the weapon resolve. If you think I did not address that, then you'll need to go back and read through my posts, because I have done so multiple times in this thread.

Browarod, we may have an issue if Evil Spawn were WC, but as it stands, there is nothing in the OoO that would be contentious with that particular card. I was more referring to the ability on the card, which was more reasonable than an identifier on a character that when you drew it (and therefore it was still out of play in your hand) you could do something with it

browarod · « **Reply #40 on:** February 13, 2014, 02:06:11 PM »

I believe "those that add a character to the battle" in the OoO IS just shorthand for "banding, choose the blocker, and choose the rescuer abilities" as I've never seen any indication (and the current status quo of Nebby agrees) that "add to battle" abilities have to wait until after weapons just because they have the possibility to add a character to battle.

The point I'm trying to make is this: Nebby says "OT crimson card." Said card can be a character but isn't unless you choose one. At face value it's literally just "OT crimson card" which is not specifically a character so, in my opinion, I don't feel as though it falls under the clause of the OoO. If Nebby instead said "OT crimson character or enhancement" then I might agree with you because it specifically says the word "character," but as it stands I don't think it hits the clause.

Praeceps · « **Reply #41 on:** February 13, 2014, 05:12:54 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 13, 2014, 02:06:11 PM

I believe "those that add a character to the battle" in the OoO IS just shorthand for "banding, choose the blocker, and choose the rescuer abilities" as I've never seen any indication (and the current status quo of Nebby agrees) that "add to battle" abilities have to wait until after weapons just because they have the possibility to add a character to battle.

The point I'm trying to make is this: Nebby says "OT crimson card." Said card can be a character but isn't unless you choose one. At face value it's literally just "OT crimson card" which is not specifically a character so, in my opinion, I don't feel as though it falls under the clause of the OoO. If Nebby instead said "OT crimson character or enhancement" then I might agree with you because it specifically says the word "character," but as it stands I don't think it hits the clause.

But then you would still have the problem of doing it wrong if it fires before the weapon and you added a character or if it fires after the weapon and you added an enhancement/curse.

browarod · « **Reply #42 on:** February 13, 2014, 05:21:19 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on February 13, 2014, 05:12:54 PM

But then you would still have the problem of doing it wrong if it fires before the weapon and you added a character or if it fires after the weapon and you added an enhancement/curse.

Exactly, which is why I specified I "might" agree, because I'm pretty sure I'd still have the same stance as I currently do, lol.

Praeceps · « **Reply #43 on:** February 13, 2014, 09:33:47 PM »

Frankly, I don't see how an unspecific add to battle card can be held to the same OoO standard as a specific add to battle card. And there is sort of a precedence for treating them differently. With a specific search you have to show and with the three non-specific search cards you don't. Is this a different ability entirely? Yes. Was the difference emphasized to prevent cheating? Yes. But we have one ability that has two separate qualifications: one the standard, one the exception. I say the same applies here. A non-specific add to battle can pull one of three things: a Character, an enhancement, or a curse/covenant. Two of these would trigger before the weapon, while only one would have to wait.

The easiest way to resolve this is to rule it the way the two elders who spoke up earlier did. there's no confusion, it makes sense, and you're not shooting yourself in the foot just by putting Nebby or the others into your deck.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #44 on:** February 14, 2014, 07:09:31 AM »

Quote

Browarod, we may have an issue if Evil Spawn were WC, but as it stands, there is nothing in the OoO that would be contentious with that particular card.

So in a mass banding situation with Evil Spawn and a warrior class guy with horses, what order do they happen?

What about blocking with an archer with 2k horses and playing a choose the rescuer card?

I agree that the rule needs to be cleaned up and clarified. I think the cleanest way is to say that the OoO defines when the abilities happen not activate. So Neb activates his ability and searches but if it is a character then it doesn't complete or the second part doesn't happen until after the weapon abilities complete because the OoO defines when that effect happens.

Redoubter · « **Reply #45 on:** February 14, 2014, 07:32:52 AM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on February 14, 2014, 07:09:31 AM

So in a mass banding situation with Evil Spawn and a warrior class guy with horses, what order do they happen?

You know, mass banding is an issue regardless. Does each character activate completely, treating the "band" that is bringing them in as an ability to be completed last for the purpose of activating the next character, or does the 'each enters at the same time but the holder chooses the order' thing mean that you would activate abilities except additional bands/CTR/CTB and weapons, then do those in the order defined? I think we have been working under the first assumption, but this is an interesting question as well.

Quote from: galadgawyn on February 14, 2014, 07:09:31 AM

What about blocking with an archer with 2k horses and playing a choose the rescuer card?

That's not an issue, because you are activating abilities on a different card (OoO says "When a single card has more than one special ability...", which for characters also includes their weapons).

Quote from: galadgawyn on February 14, 2014, 07:09:31 AM

I agree that the rule needs to be cleaned up and clarified. I think the cleanest way is to say that the OoO defines when the abilities happen not activate.

Agree wholeheartedly. As I have said before, I am arguing my position based on how I see the rules currently reading. It could definitely use some work IMO

browarod · « **Reply #46 on:** February 14, 2014, 09:47:19 AM »

If you begin a search with Nebby you have to go all the way to the end (the card going to your hand or battle), you can't just stop it in the middle. Abilities don't work like that, lol.

In mass banding situations, you'd follow the OoO for sure, but as you said the OoO only applies to individual cards so if you choose to have Rachel take effect before Zebulun, for example using Creation of the World, then Rachel completely finishes (including the band if you so choose) and then Zebulun activates. You don't postpone parts of some cards until after other cards (except weapons), that's not what the OoO is for.

I'm still not seeing where the current OoO needs clarification. Maybe if you post what your clarification would be that might help me understand?

Redoubter · « **Reply #47 on:** February 14, 2014, 06:22:40 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 14, 2014, 09:47:19 AM

I'm still not seeing where the current OoO needs clarification. Maybe if you post what your clarification would be that might help me understand?

I agree with galadgawyn that I would like the OoO to just list the order in which things occur, not to have open-ended language at any part. So, only the first part would really change, but it'd be nice it it were presented more as an linear order instead of a lot of stuff together (including non-specific clauses).

1. All abilities printed on the card except band, CTR, and CTB.
2. Gained abilities (if character).
3. Weapon (if character).
4. Band.
5. Choose the Rescuer/Blocker.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #48 on:** February 15, 2014, 05:11:34 PM »

browarod, I think you're newer to the game so you might not remember this but I'm pretty sure those OoO rules were intended to mean that in a group of abilities activating, banding and then choose opponent always happens last no matter what even if that ability is on a different card. I'm not sure it is as relevant to today's metagame but at the time (2003?) it was a major concern that people would be able to choose a blocker and then band in an ignore hero to auto win the rescue.

While cards don't normally pause in the middle, the alternative interpretations also have inconsistencies from how things are supposed to work.

Quote

In mass banding situations, you'd follow the OoO for sure, but as you said the OoO only applies to individual cards so if you choose to have Rachel take effect before Zebulun, for example using Creation of the World, then Rachel completely finishes (including the band if you so choose) and then Zebulun activates. You don't postpone parts of some cards until after other cards (except weapons), that's not what the OoO is for.

This is wrong. The rule I found:

Quote

When a banding ability adds multiple cards into battle, add them in any order and activate them one at a time in the order the cards were added. Exception: Abilities that add other characters to battle activate after all other abilities on cards banded into battle.

browarod · « **Reply #49 on:** February 16, 2014, 10:43:59 AM »

Well I'm just going off the OoO itself which specifies "When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained abilities), perform the abilities in this order:" and the only exception to that is weapons, not any other cards.

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Author Topic: Nebby + Horses adding nerg to battle (Read 5701 times)

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