Author Topic: Nebby + Horses adding nerg to battle (Read 5708 times)

christiangamer25 · « **on:** February 12, 2014, 03:01:56 AM »

ok just got thru a game and need a concise ruling cause im getting arguments on it

if i enter battle with nebby + swift horses and go get nergalsharazar out of deck add him to battle can or can't i use the swift horses cbn off of nergals ability ive heard it argued both ways and i need to know b4 the t2 only

Praeceps · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2014, 03:09:56 AM »

The Interrupt and D2 would play off Nebby, as that's who was holding horses. That being said, the player plays the enhancement so you can choose to play the enhancement horses lets you play on Nerg.

Follow-up question.
You win the battle with both Nebby and Nerg surviving. Can Nebby pass horses off to Nerg at this point, or would Nebby have to die for Nerg to take the weapon?

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2014, 03:24:01 AM »

im not sure i agree with this id appreciate if elders would chime in cause honestly i thought characters went first then enhancements and since nerg is in battle b4 horse goes off nerg can use horse thats how ive always played it or been told it works

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2014, 04:05:56 AM »

So I'm going to say what my understanding is (I am fairly sure both of you are right if I'm understanding you correctly)

Neb's ability goes through, adding Nerg to battle. Then Swift Horses activates, allowing you to draw 2 and play next. At this point you can play an enhancement on either character in battle, so you could make whatever enhancement you play CBN by playing it on Nerg.

However you can't move a weapon to a different character normally, I'm not even sure if there are any situations where you can move a weapon between characters anymore (besides returning a weapon to your hand or something like that) since they've been ruled to work like placed cards for following hosts.

A friend of mine used a deck using this combo quite well so I'm fairly confident that it works.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2014, 04:09:20 AM »

my problem is i need this combo to work with iron pan active i think it should because nebby brings the horses into the battle but nerg is there b4 they quote get used?? so i think the d2 play next should also be cbn

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2014, 07:55:11 AM »

I agree with Christian Soldiers.

FWIW I think you can still transfer weapons after battle.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:43:31 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on February 12, 2014, 07:55:11 AM

I agree with Christian Soldiers.

FWIW I think you can still transfer weapons after battle.

I believe the weapon activates on Neb making it negated by Iron Pan even though Nerg is in battle. Also I'm pretty sure I remember a thread where Gabe had ruled weapons may only pass in battle of the holder is discarded or captured and another warrior class character of the weapons brigade is in battle with the original holder. I also believe the "your" term was used to describe the weapon. So I couldn't use Manny to band to your SoT and the your ASA/horses play an EE then angel your ASA to take "your" horses and pass them to Manny.

browarod · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2014, 11:26:05 AM »

Swift Horses activates as soon as it enters battle with Nebuchadnezzar, it just has to wait to carry out it's special abilities because of the order of operations (much like mass banding enhancements bring all the characters in at once but the abilities resolve in a chosen order) and at that time Nergal is not in battle so Horses is being negated by Iron Pan. Adding Nergal to battle doesn't undo that because cards are either CBN or not CBN when they are played and cannot retroactively gain CBN.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2014, 12:22:49 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 12, 2014, 11:26:05 AM

Swift Horses activates as soon as it enters battle with Nebuchadnezzar, it just has to wait to carry out it's special abilities because of the order of operations (much like mass banding enhancements bring all the characters in at once but the abilities resolve in a chosen order) and at that time Nergal is not in battle so Horses is being negated by Iron Pan. Adding Nergal to battle doesn't undo that because cards are either CBN or not CBN when they are played and cannot retroactively gain CBN.

I agree with this.

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2014, 12:37:59 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 12, 2014, 11:26:05 AM

Swift Horses activates as soon as it enters battle with Nebuchadnezzar, it just has to wait to carry out it's special abilities because of the order of operations (much like mass banding enhancements bring all the characters in at once but the abilities resolve in a chosen order) and at that time Nergal is not in battle so Horses is being negated by Iron Pan. Adding Nergal to battle doesn't undo that because cards are either CBN or not CBN when they are played and cannot retroactively gain CBN.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2014, 02:34:48 PM »

Well boo makes my deck a tad weaker

The Guardian · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2014, 02:48:10 PM »

Quote

Also I'm pretty sure I remember a thread where Gabe had ruled weapons may only pass in battle if the holder is discarded or captured and another warrior class character of the weapons brigade is in battle with the original holder.

I thought it was still legal to transfer weapons from one surviving character to another after a battle, but perhaps I missed that change? Do you recall at all how long ago that was from?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2014, 04:27:33 PM »

So you cannot use Nebuchadnezzar to get Nergal and play an enhancement off horses on Nergal because he is not in battle?

The Guardian · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2014, 04:30:57 PM »

You can do that, but Horses is still activated on Nebby so if Iron Pan is active or Samuel is the rescuing Hero, Horses does not have CBN status and therefore the play next ability is negated.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2014, 04:39:04 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 12, 2014, 02:48:10 PM

Quote
Also I'm pretty sure I remember a thread where Gabe had ruled weapons may only pass in battle if the holder is discarded or captured and another warrior class character of the weapons brigade is in battle with the original holder.

I thought it was still legal to transfer weapons from one surviving character to another after a battle, but perhaps I missed that change? Do you recall at all how long ago that was from?

Maybe I lost my mind, I can't seem to find the thread I was referring to.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2014, 04:52:33 PM »

Um... Point of Order

I think there is a bit of a problem with the assumptions being made here. Neb cannot go grab Nerg until after Swift Horses goes off.

Quote from: The REG

There are two types of special abilities that define how a special ability is carried out: Ongoing Abilities and Instant Abilities. When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained abilities), perform the abilities in this order:
 First, complete all special abilities in the order written on the card except those that add a character to the battle. Note that some special abilities can happen together even though they may be separated by a period. Second, if the card is a character with either a gained ability or a weapon-class enhancement, then activate the gained abilities in the order gained. Finally, activate the special abilities on the carried weapon-class enhancement.
 Complete banding abilities.
 Complete any Choose Blocker or Rescuer abilities.

Quote from: The REG

Band
Clarifications
 Any ability that adds a character to a side of the battle where at least one other character is present is a band ability.

So, deciding to use Nebuchadnezzar's ability to search for a character and add it to battle is, by definition, a band ability, and regardless of how it is defined, would still "add a character to the battle." Therefore, the weapon activates first, and then he may pull Nergalsharezer, if so desired.

Basically: If you have a Nebby + any weapon, you must decide what you are searching for. If a non-character, the search + add to battle happens before the weapon. If a character, the weapon goes first and then you may perform the search + add to battle. It also basically means you are limited to the type of card you can pull based on whether you decide to use the weapon first or second, which is an interesting implication.

TL;DR - It doesn't matter whether Nerg could make Swift Horses CBN, because he cannot even be in battle until after Swift Horses finishes via Neb's ability.

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:00:49 PM »

Nebuchadnezzar is not a band ability until it finds a target that is an evil character when it's searching deck (since he can also find enhancements or even curses). Even if the player knows ahead of time that they're searching for a character, the game doesn't know this until the search finds the character. You don't then suddenly stop his ability and make the rest of any other abilities, like Horses, finish (your deck would be mid-search in some sort of limbo), you finish his ability and then continue with other abilities per the order of operations.

For this reason, a converted Nebuchadnezzar could still enter battle even with Household Idols active.

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:05:34 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 12, 2014, 05:00:49 PM

For this reason, a converted Nebuchadnezzar could still enter battle even with Household Idols active.

Of course he can, because add to battle is not defined as a band itself. However, using it to add a character is defined as a band, and also fits the criteria of "except those that add a character to the battle." Therefore, the weapon must go first if that is how the ability would be used.

browarod · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:13:45 PM »

It's the same situation, though. Whether a Hero or an Evil Character, Nebuchadnezzar enters battle with an "add to battle" ability. The game doesn't know and can't quantify intent so it doesn't know that Nebby will eventually become a band ability and it fits him in the place any "add to battle" ability would happen in the order of operations.

If the game knows he's going to band for moving him around in the OoO, then it should also know such for ignoring him before entering with HHI.

The Guardian · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:41:39 PM »

I'm fairly certain this has been discussed/ruled on before. Perhaps some digging around is in order.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:54:49 PM »

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/weapons-a-consensus-please/msg507830/?topicseen#msg507830

I found it although it was Tim Maly that made the last post.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:59:57 PM »

In a Hosea versus Egyptian Cupbearer/Baker question thread it was confirmed that their add to battle abilities were not bands before the fact, only if they added a character to a battle that already had one on that side. Hosea can capture them if banded in after they add a character but not before.

The same would be true in this case I would think.

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2014, 06:41:58 PM »

The Hosea/Cupbearer rule is exactly the same as the HHI/Neb rule, which does not actually affect this case. Add to battle is not always a band, it is separate, so any abilities that specifically reference banding do not target cards with add to battle. That is established, and I never disputed that. Those rulings do not come into play here, however, because we are talking about a band ability at this point, if a character is selected. At the very least, it is an ability that adds a character to battle, which must wait until after weapons per the order of ability activation.

Also, I disagree with the final part of the ruling in that thread, as Hosea should never be able to capture Cupbearer because add to battle is not the same as band for targeting, just like you cannot get past immunity with a 'regardless of protection' ability. They may end up doing the same thing, but they are not the same for targeting. That may not be exactly relative to the current discussion, but I feel that may be important to the overall definition of add to battle.

Honestly, we just need some definitive clarification on add to battle and how it interacts with cases like this, so that we can end the constant questions it causes

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2014, 07:21:30 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 12, 2014, 06:41:58 PM

because we are talking about a band ability at this point, if a character is selected. At the very least, it is an ability that adds a character to battle, which must wait until after weapons per the order of ability activation.

In that case, my next question to you would be: does Nebby's search always have to wait until last to fire even if the person declares they're searching for an enhancement? Also, what about if the person doesn't know yet if they're going to retrieve a character or enhancement?

My point with these questions is that the choice (or lack thereof) of the person using it shouldn't change how the game treats the ability because that creates confusion and inconsistency. If something like Household Idols can't determine Neb is a banding card before he actually bands then neither should the game state that leads to determining order of operations. Nebby's ability has already started resolving by the time the character is selected and abilities always finish so by then it's too late to postpone it.

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2014, 07:47:54 PM »

My answer is three-fold:

First, if you were to use it prior to activating the weapon, then you would be limited to not adding a character, as per the abilities activating which would prevent such an action prior to the weapon going off. I would also argue that not using it prior to the weapon would limit what you could select when using after.

Second, I am not arguing what would be best for the game here. I am arguing what the rules say, as they stand. If I take more out of it, and say how things should be for the benefit of the game and players, that would go past what the rules actually say. Changing the rules is probably needed here, just because add to battle is so convoluted and ill-defined.

Third, again, cards like HHI and Hosea specifically mention the band ability. Immune and protect are not the same for targeting, and even though they do the exact same thing, you can't target a card with immune with something that targets protect. You cannot target a card that has add to battle as a card that has band. However, what they do is still defined in the rules and affected by other rules. If you cannot add a character to battle until after weapons, then you cannot use an ability to add a character to battle. That is different than targeting based on the name of an ability.

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Author Topic: Nebby + Horses adding nerg to battle (Read 5708 times)

TheHobbit13

browarod

TheHobbit13

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