Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on January 12, 2011, 10:15:27 PM
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Opponent activates Hidden Treasures and battle challenges with Micah(provisioned). Can he add Nazareth to battle and play Search(and search his deck)?
Because its a battle challenge, does it waste his use of Provisions?
Nazareth (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect cards in your territory and hand from shuffle by an opponent. Protect all decks from search abilities. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 13:57 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
Hidden Treasures (FF)
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle, you may play an Enhancement or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck. • Play As: Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle, you may play an Enhancement or search opponent's deck for an evil enhancement and discard it. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Obadiah 1:6 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers booster
Provisions (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set Hero aside for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards and may choose the Evil Character his opponent's uses to block Hero's next rescue attempt. • Errata: Set aside Hero for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards, and hero gains the special ability (for hero’s next rescue attempt only) “Holder may choose the Evil Character opponent uses to block” [choose opponent]. • Identifiers: OT, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:20 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)
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Well would Nazereth's ability work in battle. Probably not. So yes I would say.
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No to both.
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No to both.
I know that the second one is wrong(sorry didn't post that) but I thought that there was a discussion about how only multicolor sites work in battle and only single colored sites work in territory and that's that.
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That's so, but the site would have to somehow enter battle before the Hero for its SA to turn off in time for searching to work.
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Nazzy doesn't stop draw.
Can he add Nazareth to battle and play Search(and search his deck)?
---depends on when the site is added... I would have thought the site has to enter after the hero (and accompanying abilities complete), then hero's ability occurs, HT's ability, then add site
could be wrong though
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That's so, but the site would have to somehow enter battle before the Hero for its SA to turn off in time for searching to work.
I would think though that the site goes with the hero and then HT activates and he gets to play search to search his deck.
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It depends on whether HT is triggered by the process of the Hero entering battle or by a Hero having entered battle. And now that you mention it, I'm not quite sure which it is.
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Matt brought an interesting thought to my attention:
1) It says may, so therefore the entire ability is optional.
2) It only has a single condition, "if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle"
3) It never says WHEN before the trigger.
Therefore... why must you use it IMMEDIATELY when battle begins?
Furthermore, due to its condition, I would argue it works with banding. A single hero always enters first, even if he bands later. Therefore, the lone green brigade prophet was the first one in battle, and therefore started it by himself.
Example: Unknown Nation, Madness, and Go into Captivity are worded the same way, and can be used mid-battle, not ONLY when the trigger is met:
If your warrior class Evil Character is in battle, you may discard this card to capture a Hero.
If opponent's hero is in battle you may convert this card to an orange brigade Evil Character and add it to battle. Cannot be interrupted.
If opponent's Hero is in battle, you may discard this card to search draw pile for a human Evil Character and add it to battle.
If your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle, you may play an Enhancement or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck.
Why is HT the only one that MUST activate immediately after its trigger is met?
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The only consistant rulings are that HT either must be used immediately after the lone hero enters battle and completes its abilities or it may be used at any time during the battle.
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Why is that? It's worded EXACTLY like the cards that can be activated manually, and therefore should work the same way.
If X is true, you may do Y.
Misread your post. I only see one consistent ruling here.
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It wouldn't work with banding. The hero's special ability must complete before the artifact's begins. If we start allowing simultaneous special abilities, the game will be a mess. People can't even handle the simultaneous SoG+NJ without complaining
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BUMP FIX THIS NOW
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BUMP FIX THIS NOW
There's nothing to "fix" so stop yelling.
Sites are placed in battle with the Hero.
There was a discussion regarding this among the Elders and I believe we said that putting Nazareth in battle with a "search ability" Hero would work, so the same is true with HT.
Why is HT the only one that MUST activate immediately after its trigger is met?
I'm going to say it's because there's a choice (play or discard), and that choice must be made when it triggers.
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Once we have the specifics regarding Site abilities in battle nailed down, they will be added to the "Updated Rulings" thread.
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ty ty ty so my trick did work :P :P :P
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we said that putting Nazareth in battle with a "search ability" Hero would work
Except that it doesn't. If Nazareth with a Search hero works, then I can SoG/NJ Shuffler and Thorns and shuffle the rest of the Souls.
The initial ruling on Nazareth and Search Heroes was one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time, but is inconsistent with other rulings that are exactly the same.
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EXCEPT POL YOUR WRONG THE SEARCH ABILITY IS NOT ON THE HERO THE SITE GOES IN BATTLE WITH MY HERO AS GUARDIAN HAS RULED DOES ITS THING THEN HIDDE N TREASURES WILL ALLOW ME TO USE THE CARD SEARCH AT CBN STATUS ON THE PROPHET WHO ENTERED THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS A HERO WITH A SEARCH ABILITY BUT SINCE THE SITE CAN FOLLOW THE HERO MY COMBO WORKS YOUR SOUL SITUATION IS DIFFRENT AND I NEED FINALITY ON THIS OR IM SCREWED PERMANATELY
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EXCEPT POL YOUR WRONG THE SEARCH ABILITY IS NOT ON THE HERO THE SITE GOES IN BATTLE WITH MY HERO AS GUARDIAN HAS RULED DOES ITS THING THEN HIDDE N TREASURES WILL ALLOW ME TO USE THE CARD SEARCH AT CBN STATUS ON THE PROPHET WHO ENTERED THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS A HERO WITH A SEARCH ABILITY BUT SINCE THE SITE CAN FOLLOW THE HERO MY COMBO WORKS YOUR SOUL SITUATION IS DIFFRENT AND I NEED FINALITY ON THIS OR IM SCREWED PERMANATELY
He wasn't saying you were wrong, he was saying that the ruling the elders are considering (the one allowing placing of Nazareth in battle with a "search ability" Hero to work) not your combo.
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SO DOES MY PLAY WORK OR NOT YES OR NO HAVE TO FIND OUT IMMEDIATELY
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Turning off CAPS lock and backing off of Pol for making a truthful statement would be a nice way to start. Your life is not going to end if you don't find out immediately. If you are in the middle of a game and are unsure of the ruling, flip a coin to see how you'll play it for that game and then find out the ruling later for future games.
For the record, I agree with Pol in this situation. Not only for consistency, but also it makes more sense in my mind that Nazareth and a "search hero" should not work. As for Hidden Treasure, it depends on how true what Lambo pointed out is.
Flip a coin for the time being, problem solved, calm down please.
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no i won't just flip a coin i have a tourney im trying to attend coming up and i want a final answer b4 i spend money to a travel there and b finalize the real copy of my deck so i need both the time to purchase and recieve my cards as well as budget myself for the trip meaning i need this answer now theres no time to stall
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Then it's not important for this question to be answered right this second. Be patient, you'll have your answer soon enough.
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Asking the host's opinion could help. An Elder already gave his opinion, and it is an opinion that other elders have expressed despite it making no sense (see Pol's point), so unless they change it before the tournament....
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and thats why im pushing this thread so hard im simply trying not to waste my money by finishing a deck and showing up at a tourney to be ruled against if anybody understands the power of that in relations to combos you would sauce
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Rules change. It's how this game works. Rawr is right in that you should ask the host.
Plus even if you do get a definite answer right now from an elder, that's not going to stop the rule from changing in the near future.
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then fine ill do that REYZEN ANSWER?
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PM him. He might not see the thread.
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Just PM him... Don't expect an immediate answer either, give him time. Also a little bit of politeness goes a long way.
Edit: Ring Wraith over here knows whatsup, yo.
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Example: Unknown Nation, Madness, and Go into Captivity are worded the same way, and can be used mid-battle, not ONLY when the trigger is met:
If your warrior class Evil Character is in battle, you may discard this card to capture a Hero.
If opponent's hero is in battle you may convert this card to an orange brigade Evil Character and add it to battle. Cannot be interrupted.
If opponent's Hero is in battle, you may discard this card to search draw pile for a human Evil Character and add it to battle.
If your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle, you may play an Enhancement or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck.
Why is HT the only one that MUST activate immediately after its trigger is met?
Well, for starters, your basic point is incorrect. It seems plainly obvious (to me, at least) that 'If X begins a battle' is not "worded the same way" as 'If X is in battle'. One is a trigger, the other is an ongoing condition.
we said that putting Nazareth in battle with a "search ability" Hero would work
Except that it doesn't. If Nazareth with a Search hero works, then I can SoG/NJ Shuffler and Thorns and shuffle the rest of the Souls.
Ongoing Lost Soul abilities last until the end of the phase, but abilities on sites added to battle cease functioning as soon as they enter battle (per the ruling that single-color sites don't work in battle).
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we said that putting Nazareth in battle with a "search ability" Hero would work
Except that it doesn't. If Nazareth with a Search hero works, then I can SoG/NJ Shuffler and Thorns and shuffle the rest of the Souls.
The initial ruling on Nazareth and Search Heroes was one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time, but is inconsistent with other rulings that are exactly the same.
I don't see the correlation here. It has been my belief that when you want to use a site for access, you put it in battle simultaneously with the Hero. That is the way it is usually done physically, so that is the way that I have always seen it happening. Also, from the REG:
3. An unoccupied site is placed in battle with the Hero and the icon box on the unoccupied site contains a matching brigade color in the icon box of the occupied site. The unoccupied site can be added at any time during the battle, but it must come from the player’s territory
This suggests that the site can in fact be placed in battle with the hero (I view it similar to a weapon/placed card coming in with the Hero) or at any other time during the battle. The difference I see between this situation and the shuffler/thorns situation is the following: LS abilities are active until the next phase from which they leave play (a ruling on which I was recently overruled). However, the rule with sites is that their SA's work if they are not in battle, and don't work if they are in battle. A Search ability cannot begin until the Hero is in battle, and the Hero is in battle along with the Site.
Now, the rule for sites "switching off" in battle is a relatively new one, and it hasn't been ironed out with complete certainty. But the way I interpreted it was that as soon as they are in battle, they no longer are active, and aren't necessarily pending other abilities.
Therefore, it remains my stance that adding Nazareth into battle with Susanna/Gabriel/Green Prophet with HT will allow you to search.
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The site entering battle simultaneously with the Hero is not good enough unless SoG/NJ on Shuffler and Thorns works too. The SA on the Site doesn't turn off until it's in battle, and if it's entering simultaneously with the hero, the Hero is not in battle until his SA completes. A further example would be playing Siege while Thaddeus and other cards are in play. Even in that situation, where we do have ordered simultaneous abilities, choosing Thad to enter first would still not preclude any other characters entering from Siege because the targeting has already taken place.
It's the same with the Hero. At the time of the Hero entering battle, the Site is also entering battle, the Hero can't target the deck because of Nazareth, then both cards are in battle and Search abilities are now able to work.
For further reference, please read what Thorns LS actually says.
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Also, from the REG:
3. An unoccupied site is placed in battle with the Hero and the icon box on the unoccupied site contains a matching brigade color in the icon box of the occupied site. The unoccupied site can be added at any time during the battle, but it must come from the player’s territory
This suggests that the site can in fact be placed in battle with the hero (I view it similar to a weapon/placed card coming in with the Hero) or at any other time during the battle. The difference I see between this situation and the shuffler/thorns situation is the following: LS abilities are active until the next phase from which they leave play (a ruling on which I was recently overruled). However, the rule with sites is that their SA's work if they are not in battle, and don't work if they are in battle. A Search ability cannot begin until the Hero is in battle, and the Hero is in battle along with the Site.
Now, the rule for sites "switching off" in battle is a relatively new one, and it hasn't been ironed out with complete certainty. But the way I interpreted it was that as soon as they are in battle, they no longer are active, and aren't necessarily pending other abilities.
Therefore, it remains my stance that adding Nazareth into battle with Susanna/Gabriel/Green Prophet with HT will allow you to search.
+1
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Matt and My Redemption Family:
Matt, I will probably have more than one judge at the back-to-back next month. John M. is one of them. I would also recommend you PM or E-mail John and ask him what his judging will be.
To the rest of the family:
I will abide by what is finalized by the Elders before the tourney dates, if that happens in time (before 12 midnight Feb 10). Else, please see my thoughts below, if I am left to judge by myself.
1. First, I quote the rulebook:
"The special ability on a single-colored site is active only while it is occupied."
Unless this has been officially changed lately (please show me where the updated ruling is), I will judge that Search's SA and HT's SA to discard an EE from an opponent's deck both work.
2.
Clift's premise:
Opponent activates Hidden Treasures and battle challenges with Micah(provisioned).
3. Clift's Question (disected into two parts):
Can he add Nazareth to battle...
I obviously presume that Nazareth is not occupied as it is brought into battle. My answer would be, yes, he can add Nazareth to battle.
... and play Search(and search his deck)?
Yes, he can.
Peace and Godbless, all.
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1. First, I quote the rulebook:
"The special ability on a single-colored site is active only while it is occupied."
This has been changed. The rule now is that single color sites are active outside of battle, and multicolor sites are active in battle.
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The site entering battle simultaneously with the Hero is not good enough unless SoG/NJ on Shuffler and Thorns works too. The SA on the Site doesn't turn off until it's in battle, and if it's entering simultaneously with the hero, the Hero is not in battle until his SA completes. A further example would be playing Siege while Thaddeus and other cards are in play. Even in that situation, where we do have ordered simultaneous abilities, choosing Thad to enter first would still not preclude any other characters entering from Siege because the targeting has already taken place.
It's the same with the Hero. At the time of the Hero entering battle, the Site is also entering battle, the Hero can't target the deck because of Nazareth, then both cards are in battle and Search abilities are now able to work.
For further reference, please read what Thorns LS actually says.
1.) Lost Souls and Heroes work differently
2.) Thad wouldn't interrupt Siege, so it's effect takes place, and then his.
3.) Given that the owner of the cards chooses which order the effects take place (i.e. Warrior/Weapon), the owner could choose to deactivate Naz and then HT -> Search. (This is an assumption on my part, what say the Elders?)
For further reference, telling an Elder to actually read a card doesn't help your argument much.
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The site entering battle simultaneously with the Hero is not good enough unless SoG/NJ on Shuffler and Thorns works too. The SA on the Site doesn't turn off until it's in battle, and if it's entering simultaneously with the hero, the Hero is not in battle until his SA completes. A further example would be playing Siege while Thaddeus and other cards are in play. Even in that situation, where we do have ordered simultaneous abilities, choosing Thad to enter first would still not preclude any other characters entering from Siege because the targeting has already taken place.
It's the same with the Hero. At the time of the Hero entering battle, the Site is also entering battle, the Hero can't target the deck because of Nazareth, then both cards are in battle and Search abilities are now able to work.
For further reference, please read what Thorns LS actually says.
1.) Lost Souls and Heroes work differently
2.) Thad wouldn't interrupt Siege, so it's effect takes place, and then his.
3.) Given that the owner of the cards chooses which order the effects take place (i.e. Warrior/Weapon), the owner could choose to deactivate Naz and then HT -> Search. (This is an assumption on my part, what say the Elders?)
3 is not correct. There is a prescribed order of abilities, however, it is unclear as to where site deactivation upon entering battle takes place. I have assumed that it happened as soon as the Site moved with the Hero into battle.
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Related question:
Can sites be arbitrarily added to battle? Basically, can someone push in Nazareth (even though they don't need it for access) to avoid the negative effects and not for site access?
It seems like it is a potential loophole or a clever strategy.
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@ Prof, it is, but that is happening at the same time the Hero's SA is trying to target.
@ Kittens, I told him to read the card because he missed that it specifies "while this card is in play." I could tell he was missing that information because his argument was predicated on LS's being active through the phase.
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Related question:
Can sites be arbitrarily added to battle? Basically, can someone push in Nazareth (even though they don't need it for access) to avoid the negative effects and not for site access?
It seems like it is a potential loophole or a clever strategy.
That is definitely a legal play. The sticky part is regarding abilities that activate as a result of the battle beginning (Hero abilities, Hidden Treasures).
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3 is not correct. There is a prescribed order of abilities, however, it is unclear as to where site deactivation upon entering battle takes place. I have assumed that it happened as soon as the Site moved with the Hero into battle.
What exactly is this order? Would Horses activate first, or an archer?
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1. First, I quote the rulebook:
"The special ability on a single-colored site is active only while it is occupied."
This has been changed. The rule now is that single color sites are active outside of battle, and multicolor sites are active in battle.
Peace. Please point out to where I can actually find this statement. Told I am getting senile today -- lol.
If this is the case, and if I have something 'solid' to show at the tourney, then, with the same answers I gave earlier, I would judge at the tourney in Feb this way:
a. Nazareth can still be brought to battle.
b. Yes, HT's and Search's SAs work since Nazareth loses its SA as soon as it gets into battle.
My conditions:
I will judge that for as long as you put Nazareth into battle first, then I will still give HT and Search their chances to search decks. If Search is put into battle first, then Nazareth, then I can give HT a chance to search. If Search is added into battle first, then it loses it's SA to search. HT cannot use its search SA given the above premise when Nazareth is still in territory.
However, please review with me the order of events required to happen in this scenario presented by Clift.
And I do need the official ruling's location, please.
Thanks!
Godbless.
ps--On the multicolor sites, are their SAs and 'color' not active in territory?
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ps--On the multicolor sites, are their SAs and 'color' not active in territory?
Brigades on sites are always "active", but multicolor site abilities are not active in territory, no.
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Related question:
Can sites be arbitrarily added to battle? Basically, can someone push in Nazareth (even though they don't need it for access) to avoid the negative effects and not for site access?
It seems like it is a potential loophole or a clever strategy.
That is definitely a legal play. The sticky part is regarding abilities that activate as a result of the battle beginning (Hero abilities, Hidden Treasures).
That's so strange... Man, so much stuff happens on this forum, that I miss these kinds of rule changes. To my knowledge, no one in my play group knows that a site's SA ability remains active even when it's not occupied (Unless the SA states "While this site is occupied"). Or did I just completely read this whole thing wrong? If not, that's just plain insane! It's going to change a few things for us.
**EDIT: Is there someplace that recent rule changes can be put up so that each playgroup can be notified of things like this? I often don't have the time to scour every discussion to figure this stuff out, and it would be cool if the playgroup leaders (I'm not one) could be notified via e-mail, pm, or thread to pass this kind of information on to the members of their playgroup. Our first encounter with YMT last year brought to our attention that we were playing certain things wrong, and thus our decks were nearly useless. I don't want that to happen again haha.
-C_S
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Updated Rulings Thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0)
REG Corrections Thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24699.0)
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For the record the ruling about single color sites is not in either of those threads.
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For the record the ruling about single color sites is not in either of those threads.
Acknowledged. Both threads are certainly a work in progress, (not comprehensive) and I hope to make some additions this coming weekend.
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so just for the record hero ability still in debate (not my case) enhancement used off of ht ( my case) green lighted and legal cause site hits battle with hero who resolves site shuts off i turn to ht thats how i summarize this hopefully im right and im sorry to all parties if i exploded i just try very very hard to get everything right.
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Updated Rulings Thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24490.0)
REG Corrections Thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24699.0)
Thank you. I kinda figured it might exist, but I wasn't sure.
-C_S
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so just for the record hero ability still in debate (not my case) enhancement used off of ht ( my case) green lighted and legal cause site hits battle with hero who resolves site shuts off i turn to ht thats how i summarize this hopefully im right and im sorry to all parties if i exploded i just try very very hard to get everything right.
Blessings, Matt.
If no formal rulings are posted, I will judge the situation at the Long Island tourneys next month, like I had mentioned earlier:
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=25025.msg395056#msg395056 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=25025.msg395056#msg395056)
Peace.