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Author Topic: Naz and Exchange  (Read 2293 times)

browarod

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Naz and Exchange
« on: July 28, 2015, 09:29:36 AM »
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Does Nazareth stop exchanges into deck? Nazareth specifies it protects from "search abilities" and while exchange includes an inherent search it's not technically a "search ability", it's an "exchange ability."

Tl;dr - Does the implied search portion of exchange qualify it as a "search ability"?

Nazareth - Protect cards in your territory and hand from shuffle by an opponent. Protect all decks from search abilities.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2015, 09:45:24 AM »
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Does Hez's Signet Ring stop Chariot o' Fire? Yes.

Anytime you'd have to search your deck to accomplish something, Nazareth stops it.
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browarod

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2015, 09:50:26 AM »
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Hezekiah's Signet Ring is worded differently, though. HSR restricts opponents from searching. Anything that searches, which exchange to deck obviously does, opponents are restricted from doing.

Naz, on the other hand, specifies that it protects from search abilities. I'm asking if an exchange ability also qualifies as a search ability (because I don't think it does/should).
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2015, 09:52:21 AM »
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Quote from: browarod on July 28, 2015, 09:29:36 AM
Does Nazareth stop exchanges into deck? Nazareth specifies it protects from "search abilities" and while exchange includes an inherent search it's not technically a "search ability", it's an "exchange ability."

Tl;dr - Does the implied search portion of exchange qualify it as a "search ability"?

Nazareth - Protect cards in your territory and hand from shuffle by an opponent. Protect all decks from search abilities.

Is an implied search a search? Yes. If you did not search would you be able to find the card you are exchanging for? No. Naz stops exchange to deck.

Quote from: Master Q on July 28, 2015, 09:45:24 AM
Does Hez's Signet Ring stop Chariot o' Fire? Yes.

Anytime you'd have to search your deck to accomplish something, Nazareth stops it.

Hez's ring stops chariot because it stops the opponent from searching the discard. Naz wont stop chariot.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 09:56:41 AM by Praeceps »
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browarod

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2015, 10:09:35 AM »
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Quote from: Praeceps on July 28, 2015, 09:52:21 AM
Quote from: browarod on July 28, 2015, 09:29:36 AM
Does Nazareth stop exchanges into deck? Nazareth specifies it protects from "search abilities" and while exchange includes an inherent search it's not technically a "search ability", it's an "exchange ability."

Tl;dr - Does the implied search portion of exchange qualify it as a "search ability"?

Nazareth - Protect cards in your territory and hand from shuffle by an opponent. Protect all decks from search abilities.

Is an implied search a search? Yes. If you did not search would you be able to find the card you are exchanging for? No. Naz stops exchange to deck.
The more accurate question is: Is an implied search a search ability? And that's exactly what I'm looking for an answer to. Exchange is defined as a separate ability that happens to include a search if it exchanges to certain locations. It's not a search ability, it's an exchange ability that shares a result of a search ability in some instances.

I just feel like special abilities that are defined as separate special abilities should be treated as separate special abilities. Decreasing a character to /0 or less to discard it accomplishes the same thing as a discard ability but is not treated as a discard ability (and protection from either can be separate or combined). Search includes an implied reveal if the card searched for has any limitations, does that mean a search ability also qualifies as a reveal ability? The replacement of a drawn Lost Soul constitutes drawing an additional card but is not considered a separate draw ability (or even part of the draw that drew it, technically), yet it accomplishes the same thing as a draw ability. We have things in the game already that act like something else but aren't considered to be that something else. I don't see why exchange should be considered a search ability just because it has a search.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 10:12:42 AM by browarod »
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2015, 10:13:53 AM »
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I'd say that implied searches count as search abilities, since it is an ability that requires you to search. No one is going to want to make Auto stronger. :P 

Quote from: Praeceps on July 28, 2015, 09:52:21 AM
Quote from: Master Q on July 28, 2015, 09:45:24 AM
Does Hez's Signet Ring stop Chariot o' Fire? Yes.

Anytime you'd have to search your deck to accomplish something, Nazareth stops it.

Hez's ring stops chariot because it stops the opponent from searching the discard. Naz wont stop chariot.

I know Naz won't stop Chariot, but Chariot is also an implied search, as it says return. Hez's ring doesn't restrict return abilities.
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browarod

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2015, 10:19:20 AM »
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Quote from: Master Q on July 28, 2015, 10:13:53 AM
No one is going to want to make Auto stronger. :P
While I admit that I'm arguing in favor of him, I feel like above all else the rules should be clear and consistent, even if it makes a specific card stronger.

We shouldn't be changing/ruling game rules based on a single card.

Quote from: Master Q on July 28, 2015, 10:13:53 AM
I'd say that implied searches count as search abilities, since it is an ability that requires you to search.
So a decrease ability that results in a character being /0 or less, or an end the battle ability used when you are defeating the heroes, count as discard abilities since they are abilities that result in a character being discarded?
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2015, 10:22:48 AM »
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This has been brought up many times, more times than I can count.  It is a Search ability if it goes to deck or discard, in addition to being an Exchange, per the definition of Search.  That is the consistent, and current, ruling.

Since this has come up so often, we already put clarification in Exchange for the new REG instead of just leaving it in Search, so that it is clear that it includes a Search as well when it targets those locations.
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browarod

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2015, 10:28:40 AM »
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So just to confirm then, a search ability is also a reveal ability if it searches with any kind of restrictions?

Quote from: Redoubter on July 28, 2015, 10:22:48 AM
It is a Search ability if it goes to deck or discard or Artifact Pile, in addition to being an Exchange, per the definition of Search.  That is the consistent, and current, ruling.
Also, FTFY. ;)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 10:31:48 AM by browarod »
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2015, 10:31:17 AM »
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Quote from: browarod on July 28, 2015, 10:28:40 AM
So just to confirm then, a search ability is also a reveal ability if it searches with any kind of restrictions?

Yes.  If it does not allow you to Search for 'any card' but instead for a specific card or card type, then you must Reveal the chosen card.
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browarod

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 10:38:06 AM »
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I still think abilities should be separate if they're defined separately, but at long as it's consistent across all special abilities I can live with it. (with the bonus that it also reduces AUtO's effectiveness a bit)
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2015, 10:42:41 AM »
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Quote from: browarod on July 28, 2015, 10:38:06 AM
I still think abilities should be separate if they're defined separately, but at long as it's consistent across all special abilities I can live with it. (with the bonus that it also reduces AUtO's effectiveness a bit)

It really doesn't have to do with AutO, this rule has been around for...well, I'm pretty sure since abilities were written down and Exchange existed.  However, there are other abilities that are defined using other abilities at their core.  Negate, for example, Prevents everything ongoing as a Prevent does.  Sometimes, we need for one ability to pull in the effects of multiple other abilities to make sense, and especially to shorten cards.  AutO would be longer if we put additional words on him, and honestly wouldn't make sense (why am I searching territory?), so we use Exchange which we already have ruled to include a Search.
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browarod

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2015, 10:53:19 AM »
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Sorry, that's not what I meant. I fully understand defining abilities with references to other abilities to be clearer, shorter, and more succinct; I'm all for saving card space and making abilities easier to understand. I just feel like an ability should be its own ability regardless of whether it includes components of other abilities. Exchange sometimes includes a search, sure, but I don't think it should be considered a "search ability" because it's already an exchange ability. Negate shouldn't be a "prevent ability" because while it behaves like a prevent it's more and different than just that. Search shouldn't be a "reveal ability" just because you have to prove that what you searched for is valid. Don't even get me started on add to battle and band....

I understand that's not how Redemption chooses to work/define special abilities currently, and I'm probably the only one that wants it the other way, so I'll just take my thinking back into the corner by myself, haha.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 11:32:56 AM by browarod »
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2015, 01:14:05 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on July 28, 2015, 10:09:35 AM

The more accurate question is: Is an implied search a search ability? And that's exactly what I'm looking for an answer to. Exchange is defined as a separate ability that happens to include a search if it exchanges to certain locations. It's not a search ability, it's an exchange ability that shares a result of a search ability in some instances.

Exchange can contain a search ability or not the same way that add to battle abilities can be band abilities or not: it depends on the target.
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Just one more thing...

browarod

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Re: Naz and Exchange
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2015, 01:36:27 PM »
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At this point I have the answer and there's no further need to discuss.
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