Author Topic: More "Searchy" Stuff  (Read 866 times)

Offline Gabe

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More "Searchy" Stuff
« on: May 09, 2016, 04:30:36 PM »
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I believe we've confirmed that a card which is not a search ability but that has an implied search does not trigger Music Leader because it is not a "search ability" by the letter of the law.

Quote from: Music Leader
If an opponent uses a draw or search ability (except on a musician), you may search deck or discard pile for up to 2 good cards that involve music.

Are exchange abilities considered a search ability or do they only have an implied search? For example, does Apollos trigger Music Leader?

Quote from: Apollos
Site access. You may exchange a good card in hand with a clay Enhancement in your discard pile. Good convert Enhancements cannot be prevented.

Is Creation of the World a search ability or does it also have an implied search?

Quote from: Creation of the World
Take all Heroes having a Genesis reference out of your draw pile and band them into the Field of Battle.

Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

Offline Redoubter

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 04:57:58 PM »
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Search could be more clearly defined, to be sure.  We know what an "implied" search is, but we have no clear direction on how to treat it in terms of other cards.  For instance, "negating search" does not negate something that exchanges to a location that must be searched, but we do know that Nazareth stops that exchange through protection.  By the same vein of thought, we cannot say that exchange triggers Music Leader, nor does anything with just an "implied" search, per the current rules.

CotW is different currently still, because while it uses old wording, it is still a search ability.  Since Music Leader does not say "with the word 'search' in the special ability," it would still function with a card like that which is clearly just a search by the definition in the REG.

I would like to see us have sort of a relational structure of abilities, such that all exchanges to deck, hand, or discard are actually a subset of "search," for example, though that is not the current rule.

Offline Gabe

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 05:07:58 PM »
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CotW is different currently still, because while it uses old wording, it is still a search ability.  Since Music Leader does not say "with the word 'search' in the special ability," it would still function with a card like that which is clearly just a search by the definition in the REG.

+1 Thank you for clarifying. Part of the reason for my post is that we agreed to confirm that Creation of the World is in fact a search ability since we expect it to see more play in the very near future.



These two statements appear to me to contradict one another.

but we do know that Nazareth stops that exchange through protection.
By the same vein of thought, we cannot say that exchange triggers Music Leader, nor does anything with just an "implied" search, per the current rules.

Nazareth protects from "search abilities".
Quote from: Nazareth
Protect cards in your territory and hand from shuffle by an opponent. Protect all decks from search abilities.

Music Leader triggers from "search abilities".
Quote from: Music Leader
If an opponent uses a draw or search ability (except on a musician), you may search deck or discard pile for up to 2 good cards that involve music.

Shouldn't these two cards be played the same? My thinking is that either something is a "search ability" or it is not (potentially having an implied search). How can one work against exchange and the other one not work against exchange? Help me see what I'm missing.
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browarod

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 10:41:05 PM »
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I'm guessing Redoubter forgot that Naz specified "search abilities." He may have been thinking of Hezekiah's Signet Ring which just restricts "search."

Offline Praeceps

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2016, 05:58:23 PM »
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Except that Redoubter was right when he said that Nazzy has been ruled to work that way...
Just one more thing...

browarod

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2016, 11:26:20 PM »
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I've not ever had it ruled that Nazareth stopped exchange while I've been at a tournament, and it shouldn't be ruled that way, but it's entirely possible that it has incorrectly been ruled that way.

Per current rules/definitions, Naz would not protect from exchange because it specifies "search abilities."

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 08:37:57 PM »
+1
Can we just toss "implied search" entirely and let search be an ability, exchange be an ability, and heal be an ability that while they do "search" (the English word), they do not "Search" (the Redemption ability). This would return everything to the way it's always been played intuitively.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Redoubter

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2016, 06:22:54 PM »
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I'm guessing Redoubter forgot that Naz specified "search abilities." He may have been thinking of Hezekiah's Signet Ring which just restricts "search."

He did, because working with these cards and rules so much makes you "certain" that cards are written the way they've been ruled, not printed  ::)

So that's my bad, and sorry for not being around for a few days (work).  Based on that, I'd have to say that we need some consistency here, and that we should actually be ruling ML the same as we've always ruled Naz (which also does stop exchange, per established rulings).

browarod

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Re: More "Searchy" Stuff
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 12:36:02 AM »
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Why exactly does Naz stop exchange? Exchange is not a "search ability" so it shouldn't be affected by things that target "search abilities."

EDIT: Nevermind, I just now caught up on the "Implied Search" thread and that you guys are discussing things.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 12:53:02 AM by Browa »

 


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