Author Topic: Moses + Strife (Read 3405 times)

Josh · « **on:** June 16, 2016, 12:28:12 PM »

An interesting scenario came up in a Lackey game I was spectating yesterday. We were wondering about this:

Moses (CoW) is in a territory (doesn't matter who's). Player A attacks with Samuel (FF/ROA) banded to Saul (CoW) banded to Abigail (FF/ROA) banded to David the Shepherd. Player B plays Strife and withdraws Samuel, Saul, and Abigail. When Abigail hits territory, Moses negates her. Does this then kick David out of battle? And would Player A then have special initiative to negate Moses?

Moses - "Negate Enhancements, Lost Souls and characters in territories (except ☁ cards). While in battle, negate Enhancements and other characters in the Field of Battle (except ☁ cards)."

Abigail - "You may draw X (limit 3). Protect characters in your territory and Lost Souls in opponent's territory from evil cards. May band to David."

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2016, 12:43:33 PM »

Non TC characters are only active in battle, and TC characters reactivate on hitting territory. I would rule she is not negated, though the case is interesting. She has an instant effect in this case that completing, and she is not reactivation in territory. I also wonder about her protection but would say that is still active.

That is what I would rule now, definitely want to discuss this further.

kariusvega · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2016, 12:51:28 PM »

yeah i said she was not negated since moses doesn't negate character's in battle and that's where she was activated

still an interesting topic

kram1138 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2016, 12:56:14 PM »

The protect was irrelevant in the actual game, since Coliseum was up.

I would argue that she is negated, since some non TC cards with instant abilities can be negated even if not in battle via "negate the last" abilities. For example, a player plays a "discard this card to do X" enhancement that doesn't cause SI, but allows the opponent to have initiative. The opponent plays a "negate the last" enhancement. The enhancement is currently in the discard pile, but is still negated. (Unless I'm very wrong here)

Likewise, Abigail is no longer in battle, but since the phase hasn't changed, is still negatable.

I don't recall anything in the REG that specifies an ability has to be negated from the same location it was played.

Josh · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2016, 01:07:15 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 16, 2016, 12:43:33 PM

Non TC characters are only active in battle, and TC characters reactivate on hitting territory. I would rule she is not negated, though the case is interesting. She has an instant effect in this case that completing, and she is not reactivation in territory. I also wonder about her protection but would say that is still active.

That is what I would rule now, definitely want to discuss this further.

This effectively says "non-TC heroes that activate in battle and then withdraw are CBI". Not saying this is good or bad, but that's what I read. If a negate-last card can target an ability on a card in discard, I personally don't see why Abigail isn't negated when she hits territory.

Is this saying Abigail's ability is "in battle" (for lack of a better phrase)? If so, and David plays Peace Treaty off of Throne of David and bands Moses into battle, does David then get kicked out since Moses is now negating abilities in the Field of Battle?

Another example off the top of my head: If Uzzah blocked David in the prior example, even though he is "in discard" when Moses enters battle via Peace Treaty, since Uzzah activated "in battle", is his Protect ability therefore "in battle" and Moses negates it?

A third example: Goliath blocks Abigail/David. Abigail is kicked out, David remains. Goliath later (following the printed order of his abilities) negates banding. Is Abigail negated or not?

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2016, 01:16:08 PM »

I think there are some interpretations of negate here to look at. Negate never targets cards, it targets the abilities on those cards. A negate last isn't reaching into discard to target the card, it is finding the ability on the last card played that meets the condition.

If Abigail is active in battle, that is where her ability is active. Withdraw doesn't make her CBI, anything negating that protect or interrupting ongoing still affects it.

The discussion should definitely keep in mind that abilities, not cards, are being targeted with a negate.

kram1138 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2016, 01:19:53 PM »

Is there actually anything specifying that abilities are active in locations that aren't the same as the location as the card itself? The abilities are still "on" the cards. If the cards move, wouldn't the ability be in the same location as the card?

Josh · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2016, 01:27:18 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 16, 2016, 01:16:08 PM

If Abigail is active in battle, that is where her ability is active. Withdraw doesn't make her CBI, anything negating that protect or interrupting ongoing still affects it.

So if Goliath blocks Abigail/David, Goliath withdraws Abigail, and later negates band abilities, David would get kicked out of battle when the band ability is negated. Correct?

Quote from: Redoubter on June 16, 2016, 01:16:08 PM

If Abigail is active in battle, that is where her ability is active. Withdraw doesn't make her CBI, anything negating that protect or interrupting ongoing still affects it.

So if Uzzah blocks and discards himself, and I use Throne of David to bring Moses/Habakkuk/Jeremiah into battle, Uzzah's protection is negated, since it was activated in battle. Correct?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** June 22, 2016, 11:11:42 AM »

That seems wrong.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2016, 12:00:44 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on June 16, 2016, 01:27:18 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on June 16, 2016, 01:16:08 PM
If Abigail is active in battle, that is where her ability is active. Withdraw doesn't make her CBI, anything negating that protect or interrupting ongoing still affects it.

So if Goliath blocks Abigail/David, Goliath withdraws Abigail, and later negates band abilities, David would get kicked out of battle when the band ability is negated. Correct?

Quote from: Redoubter on June 16, 2016, 01:16:08 PM
If Abigail is active in battle, that is where her ability is active. Withdraw doesn't make her CBI, anything negating that protect or interrupting ongoing still affects it.
So if Uzzah blocks and discards himself, and I use Throne of David to bring Moses/Habakkuk/Jeremiah into battle, Uzzah's protection is negated, since it was activated in battle. Correct?

I would think that in the first scenario David would get kicked back by the negate of banding since Abigail is still in play, but for the other one I'm not sure if Uzzah is still targetable by Moses/Habba/Jerry because he's no longer in play. I don't remember exactly how the Angel's Sword/TToD + Uzzah interaction turned out so I could be wrong though.

Mod edit: Fixed your quote.

Josh · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2016, 08:05:56 AM »

Quote from: KoalaKing on June 23, 2016, 12:00:44 AM

I would think that in the first scenario David would get kicked back by the negate of banding since Abigail is still in play, but for the other one I'm not sure if Uzzah is still targetable by Moses/Habba/Jerry because he's no longer in play. I don't remember exactly how the Angel's Sword/TToD + Uzzah interaction turned out so I could be wrong though.

I was just saying that if Abigail isn't negated by Moses when she returns to territory because her ability activated "in battle", then by the same vein of logic, Uzzah could be negated by any card that enters the Field of Battle, since that's where his ability activated.

It seems that the physical location of cards doesn't matter; it's where they activate that determines if their abilities can be targeted by negates.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2016, 11:08:57 AM »

i had the same type of scenerio happen against JD on lackey with Simon the Zealot vs Moses. Is Simon the Zealot's protection negated after battle when he returns to territory?

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2016, 11:12:13 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on July 01, 2016, 11:08:57 AM

i had the same type of scenerio happen against JD on lackey with Simon the Zealot vs Moses. Is Simon the Zealot's protection negated after battle when he returns to territory?

Yes, StZ is not CBN/CBI so he can be negated in territory.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2016, 02:32:31 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on June 23, 2016, 08:05:56 AM

Quote from: KoalaKing on June 23, 2016, 12:00:44 AM
I would think that in the first scenario David would get kicked back by the negate of banding since Abigail is still in play, but for the other one I'm not sure if Uzzah is still targetable by Moses/Habba/Jerry because he's no longer in play. I don't remember exactly how the Angel's Sword/TToD + Uzzah interaction turned out so I could be wrong though.

I was just saying that if Abigail isn't negated by Moses when she returns to territory because her ability activated "in battle", then by the same vein of logic, Uzzah could be negated by any card that enters the Field of Battle, since that's where his ability activated.

It seems that the physical location of cards doesn't matter; it's where they activate that determines if their abilities can be targeted by negates.

That seems wrong.

Josh · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2016, 08:10:16 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 01, 2016, 11:12:13 AM

Yes, StZ is not CBN/CBI so he can be negated in territory.

So why isn't Abigail negated when Strife withdraws her and Moses is in territory?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2016, 08:27:57 PM »

Because Moses in territory only negates Characters in territory and that doesn't apply to Abigail even though she's a character in a territory because she wasn't when her SA activates and something that negates a Hero in battle would still negate her even though she's in territory.

kariusvega · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2016, 10:06:04 PM »

See instant vs ongoing abilities

kariusvega · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2016, 10:36:52 PM »

"Instant abilities are special abilities that complete when the card is played or otherwise activated, and do not have ongoing effects. Any instant ability whose effects resolved in a previously-completed phase, even during the same turn, cannot be interrupted or negated. Effects that complete in a phase can only be undone in the phase they completed." this is from the reg

i could see where there could be disagreement. i think my interpretation of this is the abilities complete when- and where -the ability is activated.

as for being negated in the same phase, i think it is reasonable to understand why if abigail is returned to territory she could be negated by moses in territory in the same phase.

good to discuss

kariusvega · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2016, 10:42:42 PM »

this also applies to thorns and thistles so i'm looking forward to seeing the final ruling

kram1138 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 02, 2016, 12:28:18 AM »

I also am hoping for a final ruling. I could agree with abilities only being negatable in the location of activation, if there was some evidence for this being the case. There doesn't seem to be any indication from any existing rules that this is the case though. As far as I can tell, with our current ruleset a card can be negated regardless of location, as long as it is targetable. I realize that you don't negate cards, but abilities. However, abilities are always on cards, and this is how it is treated. Ex. "negate a card in battle/territory" or "negate a specific card".

Josh · « **Reply #20 on:** July 02, 2016, 01:24:39 AM »

Quote from: kram1138 on July 02, 2016, 12:28:18 AM

I could agree with abilities only being negatable in the location of activation

Then 7SoS can no longer exchange with KoT from discard. 7SoS would stay in battle in a FBTN battle. Goliath can autoblock Abigail/David, Ishmaiah/Asahel, etc.

Not to mention poor Angel of the Winds...

Quote from: other Redemption players

I could agree with abilities only being negatable in the location of the card that activated

Strife/Moses becomes much more fun. Moses/Thorns and Thistles becomes a pain for all the new Withdraw enhancements.

kariusvega · « **Reply #21 on:** July 02, 2016, 02:56:13 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on July 02, 2016, 01:24:39 AM

Quote from: kram1138 on July 02, 2016, 12:28:18 AM
I could agree with abilities only being negatable in the location of activation

Then 7SoS can no longer exchange with KoT from discard. 7SoS would stay in battle in a FBTN battle.

Not to mention poor Angel of the Winds...

Quote from: other Redemption players
I could agree with abilities only being negatable in the location of the card that activated

Then Goliath can autoblock Abigail/David, Ishmaiah/Asahel, etc. And Strife/Moses becomes much more fun.

negate does default to play so we do know that 7sos to kot/angel of the winds to moses do work

Gabe · « **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2016, 11:27:10 AM »

Our consensus on this question is as follows:

The ongoing component of Moses ability is a prevent effect. Since Abigail has already activated (in battle where she was not negated) Moses is no longer able to prevent her ability when she is withdrawn to territory.

If a card was later played in battle that read "negate a Hero" and Abigail (in territory) was chosen, her protect and band abilities would be negated.

kram1138 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 08, 2016, 11:40:33 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 08, 2016, 11:27:10 AM

Our consensus on this question is as follows:

The ongoing component of Moses ability is a prevent effect. Since Abigail has already activated (in battle where she was not negated) Moses is no longer able to prevent her ability when she is withdrawn to territory.

If a card was later played in battle that read "negate a Hero" and Abigail (in territory) was chosen, her protect and band abilities would be negated.

Thank you for this clear explanation. I understand now what was meant by "activated in battle". Before I thought this meant that her ability is somehow "in battle" after activation, so Moses wouldn't target it, even though she was in territory.

Josh · « **Reply #24 on:** July 09, 2016, 09:56:45 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 08, 2016, 11:27:10 AM

Our consensus on this question is as follows:

The ongoing component of Moses ability is a prevent effect. Since Abigail has already activated (in battle where she was not negated) Moses is no longer able to prevent her ability when she is withdrawn to territory.

If a card was later played in battle that read "negate a Hero" and Abigail (in territory) was chosen, her protect and band abilities would be negated.

Thank you for the discussion and reasoning of this. I think this makes perfect sense.

*****

Just to confirm - it seems that Negates target the abilities of cards in the location of the card? So KoT wouldn't negate 7SoS after exchange, banding in Moses to battle after Uzzah has blocked won't stop Uzzah's protection, etc. I think this the best way to have Negates work.

So going back to the Abigail/David blocked by Goliath question... When Goliath blocks, he kicks Abby out of battle. Then the attacker can Present a new hero, but David is still in battle, so no Present. Last, Goliath negates band abilities. His ability doesn't specify a location, so Goliath negates all band abilities on cards in play. Abigail, in territory, is then negated, kicking David out of battle.

Is this correct? It's actually an important scenario, with the I Samuel drawing engine catching on in the meta.

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Author Topic: Moses + Strife (Read 3405 times)

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