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I think I'm more of a...

Well, how some define "problem" seems to be different.

Truth.

Moses is called a judge and a priest.

Moses is not called a judge. It says he judged the people.

This difference between role and title is precisely the reason no one think Governor Felix should be a judge despite this...

Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on March 11, 2010, 11:10:38 AM

Moses is called a judge and a priest.

Moses is not called a judge. It says he judged the people.

This difference between role and title is precisely the reason no one think Governor Felix should be a judge despite this...

Quote from: Acts 24:10

Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:

Governor Felix is not a judge in Redemption because Redemption defines "judge" as "a leader of Israel from the promised land to the era of the kings."

Some would prefer to change that to "a leader of Israel from the Exodus to the era of the kings" so that it would include Moses.

We don't have to look at who was actually called a "judge" in the Bible.  If you disqualify Moses simply because the Bible says he "judged Israel," then you also have to disqualify Shamgar, Tola, Jair, Ibzan, Elon, and Abdon.  All those references merely say so and so "judged Israel," which is the same verb used to describe what Moses did, right?  (I don't know Hebrew, so maybe you could help me out there).

And we don't make a distinction between role and title for prophet, so we won't likely do it for judge either.  We just use the "leader" definition, and limit the time frame so as not to include kings on the latter end and patriarchs on the front end.

Eli and Samuel are judges, too, and they are not in the book called "judges."

My point is that if you are going to call Joshua a judge, you should expand the definition and call Moses a judge, too.

Otherwise, you could be more strict with the definition and not include Joshua.

But being found in the book of Judges should not have anything to do with it, since we all agree with calling Eli and Samuel judges.

Eli and Samuel are judges, too, and they are not in the book called "judges."

I was trying to point out a difference between Joshua and the people that you mentioned. Not the sole difference, not the major difference, but a relatively large distinction nonetheless.

My disagreement with Joshua being considered a judge is not that he wasn't in the book of Judges. It was that Joshua does not fit the pattern of judges outlined in Judges 2. The judges are a specific archetype that presages one aspect of the Christ similar to what the role of prophet does. It is also a role that is particularly ill-fitting when placed on the character of Joshua, which is why Joshua is not traditionally considered a judge.

But once again, Redemption is a game, and it doesn't matter a great deal. Keep Joshua as a judge if you wish and add Moses as a judge if you want, but don't confuse Redemption definitions with theology.

We don't have to look at who was actually called a "judge" in the Bible.  If you disqualify Moses simply because the Bible says he "judged Israel," then you also have to disqualify Shamgar, Tola, Jair, Ibzan, Elon, and Abdon.  All those references merely say so and so "judged Israel," which is the same verb used to describe what Moses did, right?  (I don't know Hebrew, so maybe you could help me out there).

H8199
שׁפט
shâphaṭ
BDB Definition:
1) to judge, govern, vindicate, punish
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to act as law-giver or judge or governor (of God, man)
1a1a) to rule, govern, judge
1a2) to decide controversy (of God, man)
1a3) to execute judgment
1a3a) discriminating (of man)
1a3b) vindicating
1a3c) condemning and punishing
1a3d) at theophanic advent for final judgment
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to enter into controversy, plead, have controversy together
1b2) to be judged
1c) (Poel) judge, opponent-at-law (participle)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2443

This is a direct quote from the Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew dictionary for every word, in the book of Judges, for Judged, Judge, Judges ect.. The word pictures in this entemalogical root are very interesting to me in the ancient understanding of the language. The letters are (from right to left) Shin-Pey-Tet. Shin is teeth or destruction. Pey is a mouth or to speak. Tet is a snake or surrounding. So with the center letter (pey) driving the word, it means, To speak destruction all around. I find that as an interesting definition, considering that the decision of a judge would most likely speak destruction of some form to the guilty party.

I find it interesting that everyone seems to want Moses to be a Judge for Judges seat, it would be much better with Eli in the hot seat and moses to attack if you ask me.

Let's go to the source: Judges 2:16-19.

16 Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them.
17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so.
18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.

There's a tendency for any reader to read these lines and feel it's a direct result of the lawlessness that existed right after Joshua's death.  However, they could also describe the general condition of Israel and the reason for a need for a judge at any time after the Exodus.  This scripture fits the time of Moses and Joshua just as it fits all of the judges in the book of Judges, as well as Eli and Samuel.  Look closely at the description of a judge: "...the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge...".  Moses and Joshua fit this biblical description of God's judge.  Obviously, the Lord was not with Governor Felix or Pharisees so they do not fit this description.  Once King Saul arrives, the Lord seems to divide up the duties of a judge to priests, prophets and kings.

Daniel Powter in fact has three studio albums, containing a combined total of 34 songs.  Although no one has ever heard any of his songs excpet "Bad Day".

Quote from: STAMP on March 11, 2010, 05:03:28 PM

There's a tendency for any reader to read these lines and feel it's a direct result of the lawlessness that existed right after Joshua's death.

There is a tendency to read those lines in that way because Judges 2:8-10 specifically state that all this happens after the death of Joshua. Specifically starting a generation after the generation that buried Joshua.

So how do you explain verses 1-5?  Disobedience, lawlessness, forsaking the Lord...the Israelites did this in the wilderness and prior to Joshua's death.  The conditions were the same then and two genrations after Joshua.  Furthermore, verses 16-19 cover a period of time for all of the judges, not just the time right after Joshua's death, so it very well could have covered Moses' and Joshua's time.  Commentaries differ.  But one thing is for sure: Moses and Joshua should be stuck together, either both as judges or both not.

Personally, I like to look back at the whole Bible when I see situations like this.  To me, "judge", as role and title, originated out of Moses like Eve originated out of Adam.  Moses is more a judge than all the other "clones".  Jesus said it was Moses' Seat.  He represents the Law in the transfiguration.  Put all the judges together in the Bible and they still would not equal Moses as judge as to all he perfomed in that capacity.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 11, 2010, 06:14:09 PM

Quote from: D-man on March 11, 2010, 06:07:16 PM

Daniel Powter in fact has three studio albums, containing a combined total of 34 songs.  Although no one has ever heard any of his songs excpet "Bad Day".

so, maybe Moses had three albums, but we only know of one song 

i think the bible would say if he wrote more then one song.

Considering the way ancient and bibilical Hebrew were handed down, and in many cases still are today, each of the 5 books of the bible that Moses wrote could be considered a song book. The Torah portions are sung in Synagogues and Yeshivas each week. They were handed down from father to son by singing them (we all know you remember a song more than a speech). I am not saying that Moses is a musician, if we say that he is then we have to say that his sister Miram is. She led the women of Israel in a dance with a tamborine after the crossing of the red sea if I remember the story right.

DMM,

Yes the Synagogue is the Jewish houses of worship (as well as where Jesus worshipped). Also included in that group is the Messianic Jewish Synagogue where I am Congregational Leader. Granted, we only sing the Portions on special occasions (bar/bat mitzvah, ect.). Yet my comment was regarding the fact that, when Moses wrote the Pentatuch (Torah), they would have been sang, and were sang for Hundreds of years after.

I don't know what you meant by "if so, that would explain it", but I don't think you have anything against the Jewish People. I don't assume that about anyone.

Just wanted to make sure you understand that I would never make the accusation that you or anyone else was an anti-semite unless it was clear by your posts. Even then, I would never make it publicly. (I might PM something like that to you, but never on the forum)