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Author Topic: Moses can fly?  (Read 5560 times)

Offline Cpt.Jaeger

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2010, 08:22:17 PM »
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ugh, idk, elder confirmation?

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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2010, 08:23:36 PM »
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Offline adotson85

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2010, 08:25:58 PM »
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Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on October 26, 2010, 08:22:17 PM
ugh, idk, elder confirmation?



Here is a link with an elder's ruling. Should be the 4th post.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0
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Offline Cpt.Jaeger

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2010, 08:29:54 PM »
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Quote from: Ring Wraith on October 26, 2010, 08:23:36 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on October 24, 2010, 06:22:35 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on October 24, 2010, 06:04:38 PM
I believe you played that correctly.

+1
Elder says he goes to territory.

not what i was asking, sorry, should have specified

Quote from: adotson85 on October 26, 2010, 08:25:58 PM
Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on October 26, 2010, 08:22:17 PM
ugh, idk, elder confirmation?



Here is a link with an elder's ruling. Should be the 4th post.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0

that works for me, thanks
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Offline Ammian

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2010, 11:31:16 PM »
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Perhaps there is some confusion.  I thought Amon's ability allowed you to take the enhancement into hand - not play it automatically.  If the ability searches your discard pile for an enhancement and plays it automatically, then:
1. Amon is insanely overpowered.
2. You would be correct and foolish advice would negate Amon's ability.

But if it just instructs you to take it into hand, you play it at any time during the battle.  In fact, you could wait until nine other enhancements have been played and then throw that sucker out there.  It would only negate continuing effects and the effect of the last enhancement played - other things which transpired long ago in the past (Amon's ability) would not get negated, as they already happened, are old news, and are not continuing.  The game has progressed.  You can't interrupt something that happened long ago.  Am I correct?

Er...
Ammian
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2010, 11:32:34 PM »
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Quote from: Ammian on October 26, 2010, 11:31:16 PM
Perhaps there is some confusion.  I thought Amon's ability allowed you to take the enhancement into hand - not play it automatically.  If the ability searches your discard pile for an enhancement and plays it automatically, then:
1. Amon is insanely overpowered.
2. You would be correct and foolish advice would negate Amon's ability.

But if it just instructs you to take it into hand, you play it at any time during the battle.  In fact, you could wait until nine other enhancements have been played and then throw that sucker out there.  It would only negate continuing effects and the effect of the last enhancement played - other things which transpired long ago in the past (Amon's ability) would not get negated, as they already happened, are old news, and are not continuing.  The game has progressed.  You can't interrupt something that happened long ago.  Am I correct?

Er...
Ammian
It negates all previous things before it. And after it.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 11:46:15 PM by Ring Wraith »
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Offline Ammian

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2010, 11:43:06 PM »
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(Eyes go wide and pop out of sockets) WHAT?

Wow ...this explains so many rulings...
I think I may have been playing the game somewhat incorrectly...
Oof...

Thank you for enlightening me,
Ammian
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Offline The M

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2010, 09:00:49 AM »
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Negate is a whiplash. It hits things before and once the result of that has happened, it hits the next things.
Strange metaphor: Negate is Ganondorf in SSB he does his A-> and he goes to the right and to the left, kicking and KOing both people,
however if the person he kicked first hits the other person out of his awesome reach (or he is hurt/KO'd), he cannot complete the kick to the right, which would hurt the other person.
Get it?
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2010, 09:07:55 AM »
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Not in the least.  What happens if I use Moses and Elders to recur Transfiguration, to band in Moses?
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2010, 11:23:07 AM »
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Transfig is CBN, so it goes back to the discard pile, but Moses is left in battle.
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browarod

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2010, 12:24:06 PM »
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I disagree again. You played Transfig, so it would stay in battle since that card itself wasn't negated/discarded.
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Offline adotson85

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2010, 12:57:58 PM »
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Browarod is correct again. You can never "unplay" an enhancement after it has already been played. This is a game rule. Your only options are to return to hand, negate, redirect and/or discard the enhancement if applicable. None of these abilities can "unplay" the enhancement.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 01:00:12 PM by adotson85 »
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Offline Josh

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2010, 01:01:31 PM »
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Quote from: browarod on October 27, 2010, 12:24:06 PM
I disagree again. You played Transfig, so it would stay in battle since that card itself wasn't negated/discarded.
But is there a difference between playing an enhancement via initiative (like with Moses and Elders/Transfig example) and playing an enhancement via special ability (Reach)?  I KNOW that play-an-enhancement abilities have been ruled to be CBI, so I believe the card that they allow the play of remains.  

But I'm not sure about the Transfig example...  I mean, Jacob + TSA kicks TSA out of battle, so maybe Moses would kick Transfig out of battle.  Not sure.  I have the feeling that you can never "negate" the playing of an enhancement, regardless if it was played via special ability or initiative.  So I predict that Transfig stays.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2010, 01:27:09 PM »
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Everyone between Ring Wraith and this post is wrong. You can't Negate the playing of an enhancement, but you can negate Search abilities.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2010, 01:28:09 PM »
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What? I had a correct ruling? Impossible...
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browarod

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2010, 01:45:42 PM »
+1
Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 27, 2010, 01:27:09 PM
but you can negate Search abilities.
What part of my post said you couldn't? If you negate the search after the searched for card was played, though, it wouldn't return to where it was searched from (especially not if searched from deck), otherwise that would be a very OP way of recycling CBN battle winners.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2010, 02:59:48 PM »
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Bingo. Although it's extremely rare that you'll play a CBN battle-winner and also have time to Negate the card that searched for it.
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Offline Korunks

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2010, 03:05:49 PM »
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Quote from: adotson85 on October 26, 2010, 08:25:58 PM
Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on October 26, 2010, 08:22:17 PM
ugh, idk, elder confirmation?



Here is a link with an elder's ruling. Should be the 4th post.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0

Moses would still go back to hand.  Moses is not an enhancement the referenced thread only states that enhancments cannot be unplayed, not all cards.  I cannot find a ruling that says cards cannot be unplayed.  Moses was added to battle with an enhancement, once that is negated he goes back whence he came.  I have seen nothing in this thread that proves otherwise. 
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Offline adotson85

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2010, 09:31:11 PM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 27, 2010, 01:27:09 PM
Everyone between Ring Wraith and this post is wrong. You can't Negate the playing of an enhancement, but you can negate Search abilities.

I still don't see how this can undo the playing of the enhancement. You can negate search abilities, but after you play the card you searched for it can't be returned to its prior location.

Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:42:25 PM by adotson85 »
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Offline Korunks

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2010, 07:06:12 AM »
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Quote
Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.

Why, He isn't an enhancement, playing him from hand is negated why would he go to territory?  Somone show me a ruling or errata and I'll accept it and move on.  But it seems to me that he would go to hand, the card that allowed him into battle from hand is negated.  Seems pretty simple to me.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2010, 09:25:37 AM »
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Quote from: Korunks on October 28, 2010, 07:06:12 AM
Quote
Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.

Why, He isn't an enhancement, playing him from hand is negated why would he go to territory?  Somone show me a ruling or errata and I'll accept it and move on.  But it seems to me that he would go to hand, the card that allowed him into battle from hand is negated.  Seems pretty simple to me.

I agree that Moses should return to hand.
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Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2010, 09:35:14 AM »
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Well there you have it folks. PtB have spoken. can we move on?
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Offline Korunks

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2010, 09:48:15 AM »
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Quote from: The Guardian on October 24, 2010, 06:22:35 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on October 24, 2010, 06:04:38 PM
I believe you played that correctly.

+1

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 28, 2010, 09:25:37 AM
Quote from: Korunks on October 28, 2010, 07:06:12 AM
Quote
Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.

Why, He isn't an enhancement, playing him from hand is negated why would he go to territory?  Somone show me a ruling or errata and I'll accept it and move on.  But it seems to me that he would go to hand, the card that allowed him into battle from hand is negated.  Seems pretty simple to me.

I agree that Moses should return to hand.

No we can't because we have one elder saying it returns to territory, and another saying it returns to hand.  So I guess we wait for another elder?
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2010, 10:41:58 AM »
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The Guardian's post was in response to the original post, in which it was not specified where Moses went. It wasn't until a few posts later when SomeKittens said that they played him returning to territory. So there is no elder disgareement.

The ability that allowed Moses to come from hand was negated. Negating that ability should reset things to how they were before the ability activated (with Moses in hand), with the exception of it now being FBTN to avoid a loop. 
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Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Moses can fly?
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2010, 11:34:23 AM »
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We played him returning to territory, as that play won the battle for me, and I was going to place him there anyway.
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