Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: SomeKittens on October 24, 2010, 06:01:36 PM
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RA with Elijah, blocked by evil gold character. Elijah plays Reach, passes play next. Gold EC plays Outburst of Anger (Hero is returned to owners hand. A new Hero must be placed in battle or rescue attempt fails.
I play Moses from hand.
What happens? We played it as Moses negates OoA, Elijah comes back (w/ Reach), and the battle is now FbtN. (including Reach, the three cards are placed on deck)
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I think it is FBTN, but INE.
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I believe you played that correctly.
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I believe you played that correctly.
+1
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did moses return to hand?
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I would say moses does not return to hand because you cant unplay a card. I would rule he goes to territory.
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did moses return to hand?
I would say moses does not return to hand because you cant unplay a card. I would rule he goes to territory.
We played he went to territory.
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I would say moses does not return to hand because you cant unplay a card. I would rule he goes to territory.
I believe this incorrect, when an ability is negated it is like it never happened. The FBTN sticks because you cannot unplay the card, but moses returns to hand because of the negate. Because the ability that pulled him from hand was negated.
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I would say moses does not return to hand because you cant unplay a card. I would rule he goes to territory.
I believe this incorrect, when an ability is negated it is like it never happened. The FBTN sticks because you cannot unplay the card, but moses returns to hand because of the negate. Becasue the ability that pulled him from hand was negated.
that is how i would have ruled it.....
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Im not sure how relevent it is, so...
I block with King Amon get Foolish Advise from discard pile and play it. Where does foolish advise go since i negated my ability?
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Im not sure how relevent it is, so...
I block with King Amon get Foolish Advise from discard pile and play it. Where does foolish advise go since i negated my ability?
Your ability is not an actively transpiring one; it already happened. It was not interrupted, and thus it cannot be undone. If it was still in the process of happening, it would be undone. But it is not. It happened when you sent him out, before any enhancements were being played or considered.
Hey look, I can answer questions too!
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Eh, no you can't.
Foolish Advice isn't CBN, so it doesn't stick to the table. You end up with Amon in a FbtN battle with Foolish Advice in your Discard pile.
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Foolish Advice isn't CBN, so it doesn't stick to the table. You end up with Amon in a FbtN battle with Foolish Advice in your Discard pile.
Similarly Outburst of Anger is not CBN so it does not cause Moses to stick to the table. Therefore you end up with Elijah vs the Gold EC in a FBTN battle with a negated reach on Elijah, and Moses chillin in your hand.
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Korunks, you just said Moses sticks to the table and Moses chills in your hand. Which do you mean?
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I believe he meant to type "not"
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Sorry, I typed to fast and left off the not.
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The whole Moses chillin' in your hand deal makes sense. I guess he can fly. Pretty sweet.
→About the Foolish Advice: it doesn't negate itself. It says, "except this one" ...why would it end up in the discard pile?
→Besides, actions can only be interrupted if they're not complete yet. Unless you were playing foolish advice as an interrupt to your own ability ...but that would only work if Amon's ability activating was the last thing that happened, and that only applies if the game automatically considers Amon's ability to still be in motion (that is, incomplete). If the opponent played a non-interrupt card, that would begin a new action, thus requiring (by definition) that Amon's action be complete. Remember, interrupt works backward and prevent works forward. You can't prevent an action that was completed in the past - only one that is still transpiring (and was interrupted) or will transpire; you can only prevent future actions or currently transpiring actions that have been interrupted.
At least that's what I gather.
-Ammian
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→About the Foolish Advice: it doesn't negate itself. It says, "except this one" ...why would it end up in the discard pile?
But it negates Amon's ability which is what brought it out from the discard pile. So it negates its own returns so it must go back.
→Besides, actions can only be interrupted if they're not complete yet.
Thats not true nothing can stop an ability midstride. All abilities must be completed before they can be interrupted or negated.
Unless you were playing foolish advice as an interrupt to your own ability ...but that would only work if Amon's ability activating was the last thing that happened, and that only applies if the game automatically considers Amon's ability to still be in motion (that is, incomplete). If the opponent played a non-interrupt card, that would begin a new action, thus requiring (by definition) that Amon's action be complete.
Umm not quite. Amon's ability completes and Foolish advice hits play, it interrupts all abilities and prevents them, including the one that brought it into play.
Remember, interrupt works backward and prevent works forward. You can't prevent an action that was completed in the past - only one that is still transpiring (and was interrupted) or will transpire; you can only prevent future actions or currently transpiring actions that have been interrupted.
Thats is not correct Interrupt and prevent work together. Interrupt goes back, and then the prevent stops everything forward.
Hope this helps :)
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Prevent = "after" or "next whatever played"
Example = Preemptive Strike prevents (neutralizes) Courage, which was played after Preemptive Strike.
Interrupt = "before or "previous whatever played"
Example = Achan's Sin interrupts (neutralizes) Fishers of Men, which was played before Achan's Sin.
Clears things up? :)
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→About the Foolish Advice: it doesn't negate itself. It says, "except this one" ...why would it end up in the discard pile?
But it negates Amon's ability which is what brought it out from the discard pile. So it negates its own returns so it must go back.
I don't think that's right. If I play Reach and draw into AoC (not promo) and then play that as my "play an enhancement", if you interrupt and negate drawing abilities, I put the other two cards back but not AoC since it's now in play and nothing can negate the playing of a card.
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hmmm....
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Broward is correct. AoC would stay since it has already been played.
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Broward is correct. AoC would stay since it has already been played.
i don't believe so since it can be negated.
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Broward is correct. AoC would stay since it has already been played.
i don't believe so since it can be negated.
that was my thinking
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Yes AoC can be negated, but the playing of AoC can not be negated. I am 100% sure of this.
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ugh, idk, elder confirmation?
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I believe you played that correctly.
+1
Elder says he goes to territory.
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ugh, idk, elder confirmation?
Here is a link with an elder's ruling. Should be the 4th post.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0)
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I believe you played that correctly.
+1
Elder says he goes to territory.
not what i was asking, sorry, should have specified
ugh, idk, elder confirmation?
Here is a link with an elder's ruling. Should be the 4th post.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0)
that works for me, thanks
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Perhaps there is some confusion. I thought Amon's ability allowed you to take the enhancement into hand - not play it automatically. If the ability searches your discard pile for an enhancement and plays it automatically, then:
1. Amon is insanely overpowered.
2. You would be correct and foolish advice would negate Amon's ability.
But if it just instructs you to take it into hand, you play it at any time during the battle. In fact, you could wait until nine other enhancements have been played and then throw that sucker out there. It would only negate continuing effects and the effect of the last enhancement played - other things which transpired long ago in the past (Amon's ability) would not get negated, as they already happened, are old news, and are not continuing. The game has progressed. You can't interrupt something that happened long ago. Am I correct?
Er...
Ammian
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Perhaps there is some confusion. I thought Amon's ability allowed you to take the enhancement into hand - not play it automatically. If the ability searches your discard pile for an enhancement and plays it automatically, then:
1. Amon is insanely overpowered.
2. You would be correct and foolish advice would negate Amon's ability.
But if it just instructs you to take it into hand, you play it at any time during the battle. In fact, you could wait until nine other enhancements have been played and then throw that sucker out there. It would only negate continuing effects and the effect of the last enhancement played - other things which transpired long ago in the past (Amon's ability) would not get negated, as they already happened, are old news, and are not continuing. The game has progressed. You can't interrupt something that happened long ago. Am I correct?
Er...
Ammian
It negates all previous things before it. And after it.
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(Eyes go wide and pop out of sockets) WHAT?
Wow ...this explains so many rulings...
I think I may have been playing the game somewhat incorrectly...
Oof...
Thank you for enlightening me,
Ammian
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Negate is a whiplash. It hits things before and once the result of that has happened, it hits the next things.
Strange metaphor: Negate is Ganondorf in SSB he does his A-> and he goes to the right and to the left, kicking and KOing both people,
however if the person he kicked first hits the other person out of his awesome reach (or he is hurt/KO'd), he cannot complete the kick to the right, which would hurt the other person.
Get it?
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Not in the least. What happens if I use Moses and Elders to recur Transfiguration, to band in Moses?
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Transfig is CBN, so it goes back to the discard pile, but Moses is left in battle.
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I disagree again. You played Transfig, so it would stay in battle since that card itself wasn't negated/discarded.
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Browarod is correct again. You can never "unplay" an enhancement after it has already been played. This is a game rule. Your only options are to return to hand, negate, redirect and/or discard the enhancement if applicable. None of these abilities can "unplay" the enhancement.
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I disagree again. You played Transfig, so it would stay in battle since that card itself wasn't negated/discarded.
But is there a difference between playing an enhancement via initiative (like with Moses and Elders/Transfig example) and playing an enhancement via special ability (Reach)? I KNOW that play-an-enhancement abilities have been ruled to be CBI, so I believe the card that they allow the play of remains.
But I'm not sure about the Transfig example... I mean, Jacob + TSA kicks TSA out of battle, so maybe Moses would kick Transfig out of battle. Not sure. I have the feeling that you can never "negate" the playing of an enhancement, regardless if it was played via special ability or initiative. So I predict that Transfig stays.
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Everyone between Ring Wraith and this post is wrong. You can't Negate the playing of an enhancement, but you can negate Search abilities.
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What? I had a correct ruling? Impossible...
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but you can negate Search abilities.
What part of my post said you couldn't? If you negate the search after the searched for card was played, though, it wouldn't return to where it was searched from (especially not if searched from deck), otherwise that would be a very OP way of recycling CBN battle winners.
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Bingo. Although it's extremely rare that you'll play a CBN battle-winner and also have time to Negate the card that searched for it.
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ugh, idk, elder confirmation?
Here is a link with an elder's ruling. Should be the 4th post.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=20896.0)
Moses would still go back to hand. Moses is not an enhancement the referenced thread only states that enhancments cannot be unplayed, not all cards. I cannot find a ruling that says cards cannot be unplayed. Moses was added to battle with an enhancement, once that is negated he goes back whence he came. I have seen nothing in this thread that proves otherwise.
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Everyone between Ring Wraith and this post is wrong. You can't Negate the playing of an enhancement, but you can negate Search abilities.
I still don't see how this can undo the playing of the enhancement. You can negate search abilities, but after you play the card you searched for it can't be returned to its prior location.
Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.
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Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.
Why, He isn't an enhancement, playing him from hand is negated why would he go to territory? Somone show me a ruling or errata and I'll accept it and move on. But it seems to me that he would go to hand, the card that allowed him into battle from hand is negated. Seems pretty simple to me.
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Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.
Why, He isn't an enhancement, playing him from hand is negated why would he go to territory? Somone show me a ruling or errata and I'll accept it and move on. But it seems to me that he would go to hand, the card that allowed him into battle from hand is negated. Seems pretty simple to me.
I agree that Moses should return to hand.
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Well there you have it folks. PtB have spoken. can we move on?
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I believe you played that correctly.
+1
Now on the topic of the original question about Moses, I would say he goes to territory.
Why, He isn't an enhancement, playing him from hand is negated why would he go to territory? Somone show me a ruling or errata and I'll accept it and move on. But it seems to me that he would go to hand, the card that allowed him into battle from hand is negated. Seems pretty simple to me.
I agree that Moses should return to hand.
No we can't because we have one elder saying it returns to territory, and another saying it returns to hand. So I guess we wait for another elder?
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The Guardian's post was in response to the original post, in which it was not specified where Moses went. It wasn't until a few posts later when SomeKittens said that they played him returning to territory. So there is no elder disgareement.
The ability that allowed Moses to come from hand was negated. Negating that ability should reset things to how they were before the ability activated (with Moses in hand), with the exception of it now being FBTN to avoid a loop.
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We played him returning to territory, as that play won the battle for me, and I was going to place him there anyway.
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The Guardian's post was in response to the original post, in which it was not specified where Moses went. It wasn't until a few posts later when SomeKittens said that they played him returning to territory. So there is no elder disgareement.
The ability that allowed Moses to come from hand was negated. Negating that ability should reset things to how they were before the ability activated (with Moses in hand), with the exception of it now being FBTN to avoid a loop.
Ok works for me.
Case Closed (https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.buffalobills.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fdetect.gif&hash=76dc85aa2037736023621b05a02ef33689f65a85)
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Lock 'em up boys.
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Baleet.
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'N b4 teh lockage.