Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Easy.  Momentum Change establishes a triggered ability that activates in the future.  Twice Afflicted prevents the triggered ability from activating.

. This is the only way I can really see it. The ability to return the cards doesn't try to activate until the EC loses, at which time the ability cannot activate.

The way I (and STAMP) see it, Momentum Change's return ability has not yet taken effect, thus it is still possible to prevent it from taking effect. I see it like this:

Playing Momentum Change is like* declaring "If I lose my next game of Redemption, I will go jump off of a skyscraper", then making all sorts of plans for doing so (travel arrangements, bypassing security, convincing yourself that the little voice in your head telling you to not do it is wrong, etc.)

Playing Twice Afflicted is like* destroying all of the skyscrapers in the world before my next game of Redemption, making it impossible for anyone to jump off of a skyscraper. I'm not stopping any of the arrangements I made and I would be ready to go as soon as my next game is over, I'm just stopping my ability (and everyone else's) to do the final act. I just decided that it was all worth it after all (especially for that gray enhancement I can get from my discard pile now, I guess).

*Okay, so it's not nearly that dramatic. But do you see my point?

The way I (and STAMP) see it, Momentum Change's return ability has not yet taken effect, thus it is still possible to prevent it from taking effect. I see it like this:

Playing Momentum Change is like* declaring "If I lose my next game of Redemption, I will go jump off of a skyscraper", then making all sorts of plans for doing so (travel arrangements, bypassing security, convincing yourself that the little voice in your head telling you to not do it is wrong, etc.)

Playing Twice Afflicted is like* destroying all of the skyscrapers in the world before my next game of Redemption, making it impossible for anyone to jump off of a skyscraper. I'm not stopping any of the arrangements I made and I would be ready to go as soon as my next game is over, I'm just stopping my ability (and everyone else's) to do the final act. I just decided that it was all worth it after all (especially for that gray enhancement I can get from my discard pile now, I guess).

*Okay, so it's not nearly that dramatic. But do you see my point?

er, you may have confused it even more, but i see your point. mchange is played and sets up a triggered ability that hasnt happened yet. twice afflicted sets up an ability that prevents, which will stop the trigger from mchange if it hasnt happened yet. makes sense, chalk me up in your/stamps column.

I'm not sure whether I agree with this. If Momentum Change was physically placed on the table before Twice Afflicted, then I don't think Twice Afflicted could prevent its ability in any way.

Where is the little dude with the agree sign?

Anyway it goes down to simple game mechanics. I think so many people have been just trying to find things that are wrong and giving such crazy scenarios just to say they got an errata, or a new ruling, when everyone knows how it should be played. Anyway back to simple mechanics, I would say Twice Afflicted, being a prevent, has to be played before MO change, being played after would not stop it. A prevent stops anything from happening after it is played, nothing before hand, that's an interrupt. So by playing Momentum Change which is saying if you lose you get all your EE's back, then playing Twice Afflicted, which is preventing those abilities, does not stop it, because it already happened. I understand the trigger effect and when it is played and how it is ongoing, but I would think playing MO change before hand would get you EE's back.

I guess it's really a question of whether or not my assumption is true, that triggered abilities don't activate until the trigger condition is met. That's the only reasonable assumption I can draw from the idea of a trigger.

You might be right, but isn't it equally as possible that triggered abilities activate when they're played, then they patiently wait until the condition is met to complete the ability?

I found an REG quote that I think proves me and Mr. Hiatus' side:

Prevent is a special ability used to preempt (stop) a future card’s special ability.

Notice it does not use the easier wording "future special ability." If it took out the "card's," then I would probably agree with STAMP and Professoralstad's side, because Twice Afflicted would be preventing any more of Momentum Change's special ability from taking place. However, prevent does not stop abilities activating in the future; it stops abilities on cards that are played in the future. Huge difference there, especially in this case.

Nice work, Jeremy.  It pleases me to see that you're learning how to find valuable information in the REG because I know that has been challenging for you in the past.

I agree that the REG quote seems to make it clear.  I also posted it on page 2. 

The entry for Prevent in the new REG does not contain that language.  It does not use the word "card."

If an ability is prevented, its activation cannot begin.  If an ability is prevented and its activation has already begun, but it has not completed activation (i.e. it is a pending ability), the completion of the activation of the pending ability is skipped (i.e., it is no longer a pending ability even though it did not complete its activation).  An ability can not be prevented if its activation has already completed.

"not yet completed activation" and "pending" both seem to indicate that Prof's interpretation should be followed.  However, it could be that "not yet completed" and "pending" are both refering to abilities that have been interrupted, and that triggered abilities were not intended to be treated as "pending."

I'm glad we are looking at rules, but ... which rules?  

Thanks for that insight, Bryon.  That certainly makes it less clear to me.  I'm interested to hear Tim's perspective considering he wrote (or helped write) that section.

Regardless of how it will work under the new REG, this season is still played under the old REG.  Correct?

It works the same for the old and new REG.

What are you talking about? The differences between the two documents are very clear.

Quote from: BubbleBoy on May 25, 2010, 11:06:25 AM

Quote from: STAMP on May 25, 2010, 10:57:22 AM

It works the same for the old and new REG.

What are you talking about? The differences between the two documents are very clear.

I already explained the old REG quote.

Where?

The card has already activated, it just doesnt do its effect until later.

To provide an example of what I mean:

Antivirus programs are ideally the equivelant of a prevent ability. They prevent viruses from entering your computer at ALL. However,  if you turn your antivirus off, you may get a virus that sits there and waits. You failed to prevent it, even though its not currently doing anything to your computer. Later, you turn your Antivirus (prevent) back on, and the virus then activates and destroys your computer (I know some that laugh at most antivirus programs) To kill the virus NOW would be like an interrupt.

See what I mean now? Something can activate but not do anything for a while.

Also, how would you rule my example with CBI Great Image vs Moses?