Author Topic: Missing Woes trigger (Read 2037 times)

Kevinthedude · « **on:** August 05, 2018, 10:58:00 PM »

Can you declare that you are going to negate the same target with Woes indefinitely and then not need to declare the target every turn or are you required to declare the target every upkeep no matter what?

IMO the wording on the card seems to clearly indicate that the target must be declared every turn. My understanding was that this was the standing ruling but I heard reports that it was ruled otherwise this Nats. I would love to have an Elder ruling on the boards to refer back to.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #1 on:** August 05, 2018, 11:02:30 PM »

I think it's usually up to your opponent if they're cool with you doing it indefinitely. Usually when people have a marker without saying anything or if they say they want to just leave it on that then that would be fine with me but at a bigger tournament like Nats I would take their marker off if they didn't say anything about it and missed the trigger.

Jonesy · « **Reply #2 on:** August 05, 2018, 11:03:32 PM »

It was made clear to me at Nationals by a judge that you can play Woes, put a counter on the card you want to negate, and state I am negating this until I State otherwise.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2018, 03:25:01 PM »

Quote from: Jonesy on August 05, 2018, 11:03:32 PM

It was made clear to me at Nationals by a judge that you can play Woes, put a counter on the card you want to negate, and state I am negating this until I State otherwise.

I agree with Jonesy. Before my fellow Judge ruled this way I would have been inclined to rule that you must state it each upkeep.

bluefrog1288 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2018, 03:39:57 PM »

For ease of play I like the idea, but we are very specific in the wording of our game in all other aspects. Part of the required skill of playing is to always check your upkeep each turn. I learned that from the 2018 Type 1 - 2P National Champion at regionals this year.

The placing a counter method makes 3W easier to play and more accessible for newer players. Is an errata needed?

SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2018, 03:46:38 PM »

I don't always play Three Woes, but when I do I forget to target something with it 90% of the time! Stay Un-Woes'ed my friends!

Gabe · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2018, 04:08:31 PM »

I suggest checking with the host or judge before the tournament to see if they will allow a "permanent" selection marked by a counter or if they will require a verbal acknowledgement of the selection each upkeep.

What this really comes down to is an attempt to rules lawyer someone into making a "mistake" or missing an opportunity. If a player wants to use a maker to indicate their selection until a new one is chosen I'm going to allow it. We allowed it at Nationals 2017 and again in 2018.

For those of you who prefer to trip up your opponent and want to catch them forgetting the upkeep trigger, using a marker can also serve to your advantage. If I put my marker on Dull and get comfortable blazing through my upkeep because I have 3W covered, then two turns later you have HSR active, yet I go into prep phase actions without changing my marker, I don't get to move it to HSR.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2018, 04:28:02 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 06, 2018, 04:08:31 PM

I suggest checking with the host or judge before the tournament to see if they will allow a "permanent" selection marked by a counter or if they will require a verbal acknowledgement of the selection each upkeep.

What this really comes down to is an attempt to rules lawyer someone into making a "mistake" or missing an opportunity. If a player wants to use a maker to indicate their selection until a new one is chosen I'm going to allow it. We allowed it at Nationals 2017 and again in 2018.

For those of you who prefer to trip up your opponent and want to catch them forgetting the upkeep trigger, using a marker can also serve to your advantage. If I put my marker on Dull and get comfortable blazing through my upkeep because I have 3W covered, then two turns later you have HSR active, yet I go into prep phase actions without changing my marker, I don't get to move it to HSR.

Is it rules lawyering or is it wanting opponents to play clean? If my opponent doesn't have a marker and doesn't state his intention to negate a card "permanently" is his previous selection still negated if he bypasses his upkeep?

Is the Woes trigger the first or last resolved ability during upkeep when a marker is used?

If Woes marker is on Music Leader and my opponent Imitates Gain can he then declare a new target for Woes?

Bobbert · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2018, 04:35:23 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on August 06, 2018, 04:28:02 PM

Is it rules lawyering or is it wanting opponents to play clean? If my opponent doesn't have a marker and doesn't state his intention to negate a card "permanently" is his previous selection still negated if he bypasses his upkeep?

Is the Woes trigger the first or last resolved ability during upkeep when a marker is used?

If Woes marker is on Music Leader and my opponent Imitates Gain can he then declare a new target for Woes?

My experience with tabletop games tells me that the difference between a rules lawyer and someone who just wants everyone to play correctly is in the eyes of the beholder.

While I'm no judge, I'd think that "for one round" means that it runs out at the beginning of your turn.

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2018, 04:36:49 PM »

Quote

Is it rules lawyering or is it wanting opponents to play clean? If my opponent doesn't have a marker and doesn't state his intention to negate a card "permanently" is his previous selection still negated if he bypasses his upkeep?

Personally I'd be fine with any of the options (must select target every upkeep, state intention for indefinite target with marker, or implied indefinite until a new target is chosen) as long as it is ruled consistently so players can become used to one method.

Quote

Is the Woes trigger the first or last resolved ability during upkeep when a marker is used?

If Woes marker is on Music Leader and my opponent Imitates Gain can he then declare a new target for Woes?

It is my understanding that mandatory upkeep phase actions happen first in the order the player chooses and then optional upkeep phase actions happen next in the order the player chooses (like prep phase actions).

So if a player has Areopagus with a Greek, Kindness (TEC), Woes and Imitate he must first do Areopagus and Kindness (choosing which is first and second) and then he can do Woes and Imitate if he chooses (again choosing which is first and which is second).

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2018, 04:38:17 PM »

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to allow players to use a marker and how it sounds like "rules lawyering" to insist that it be repeated every turn but my primary concern with that side of the situation is that the card simply doesn't say that. Some cards in Redemption do things quite differently than how it would seem just by reading the card as a new player but Woes is not one of them. Going strictly off the wording on the card it very clearly (in my opinion) that you must select it's target each upkeep for anything to happen.

I agree with John that it's more of a desire to have a clean, standard way to play the card rather than looking for a way to "gotcha" my opponent. I think ideally letting each host decide is a good idea but the problem with that is that then to ensure that players don't misplay the card, every tournament should really start with the host announcing their Woes trigger policy.

Edit: I also agree with Guardian that having a single standard ruling enforced at all tournaments is my highest priority desire, no matter which way that ruling swings in the end.

Gabe · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2018, 04:48:50 PM »

While standardization is great, I don't see one host allowing a counter to indicate a 3W target while another does not allow it as an issue. It doesn't make or break anything. Hosts ruling TEotE interaction with LS protection consistently is the type of thing we need to be sure is consistent.

I agree 100% that you must select a 3W counter every upkeep. I don't think that's in question here. This discussion seems to be whether or not a marker is a valid indication of that selection. This doesn't seem a whole lot different to me than how we've played Artifacts (probably as long as they've been around). You don't have to verbally state that you're using it again this round, you simply leave it active. Non-verbal communication is part of the game. But maybe it shouldn't be.

The Guardian · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2018, 04:52:38 PM »

I think a marker is totally fine...I think the question is whether that marker needs to be picked up and placed every upkeep (even if it's being set back down on the same card) or otherwise it is not placed at all.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2018, 05:02:26 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 06, 2018, 04:48:50 PM

Hosts ruling TEotE interaction with LS protection consistently is the type of thing we need to be sure is consistent.

This is an issue caused by lack of knowledge rather than willfully choosing between two different potentially valid rulings. I've been playing 10 years and just discovered I was misplaying that interaction this Nats. This is a little off topic for this thread but after learning that I asked around quite a bit over the next couple days of the tournament and could not find a single other player who knew that a soul brought in with TEotE after an Uzzah or Foxes would still get protected. Thanks for reminding me to make a PSA thread about that.

The Guardian · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2018, 05:07:08 PM »

Count me as one who originally thought that was the ruling all along (that the targets update), but began to question myself because so many others seemed to think the other way that I thought maybe I had missed a ruling.

The explanation I gave to Xonathan (who admitted it made sense) was that protection functions similar to ignore in that it updates its targets when new ones enter play. i.e. You attack with a TGT Hero who is ignoring ECs in play. I can block from hand with a character that would fall under the "ignored" category and as soon as I do, that EC is then ignored (assuming it doesn't meet the TGT requirement).

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Author Topic: Missing Woes trigger (Read 2037 times)

Kevinthedude

Missing Woes trigger

TheJaylor

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Jonesy

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Red Dragon Thorn

Re: Missing Woes trigger

bluefrog1288

Re: Missing Woes trigger

SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Gabe

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Red Dragon Thorn

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Bobbert

Re: Missing Woes trigger

The Guardian

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Kevinthedude

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Gabe

Re: Missing Woes trigger

The Guardian

Re: Missing Woes trigger

Kevinthedude

Re: Missing Woes trigger

The Guardian

Re: Missing Woes trigger