Author Topic: Misplays (Read 4520 times)

Chris · « **on:** March 16, 2013, 04:27:08 PM »

Player A plays Falling Away in his prep phase, and neither player immediately realizes it was done while Lampstand was still up. He finishes his turn, Player B makes his turn, and Player A goes again. In the middle of Player A's next rescue attempt, Player B suddenly realizes that Lampstand was up when Falling Away was played, and requests the soul back. By game rule, is Player A forced to give up the soul?

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2013, 05:57:17 PM »

Quote from: Chris on March 16, 2013, 04:27:08 PM

Player A plays Falling Away in his prep phase, and neither player immediately realizes it was done while Lampstand was still up. He finishes his turn, Player B makes his turn, and Player A goes again. In the middle of Player A's next rescue attempt, Player B suddenly realizes that Lampstand was up when Falling Away was played, and requests the soul back. By game rule, is Player A forced to give up the soul?

I would say that, technically, game rule would require that the soul be returned in that scenario. Non-optional abilities or scenarios that are not possible (like Falling Away a protected soul) should be rectified as soon as possible, and game rule would be on the side of fixing the situation.

However, what if that soul was the only soul in Player A's territory, Player B tries to rescue it, and his whole offense feels Stan's Wrath. Should that all be undone, since he would have never made that battle challenge? Or is it all just his mistake for not catching the problem earlier?

I think there are times where if it is not caught, it isn't fixed, but I understand your point about having consistency in this regard.

Chris · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2013, 06:17:45 PM »

I've been playing the game, literally for years now, that any mistakes like this could only be corrected in the phase they were made, and I've never encountered anyone who corrected this belief. Yet now, I can't figure out where this understanding came from.

Master KChief · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2013, 06:30:35 PM »

The real issue isn't so much a misplay as Player A doing something he wasn't allowed to do. I feel if the gamestate is repairable, regardless of how many phases/turns have passed, then by all means fix it.

Isildur · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2013, 06:36:32 PM »

How ive had it ruled is if some one is doing a "game breaking" maneuver as long as its still the same phase you can go back but when the phase changes then no matter how horrendous the mistake it can not be undone.

I was told this at a top table booster game at the california nats for a game winning RA where some RLK forgot to discard at the end of his turn (for literally the entire game). So when I went in for the win he had a bagillion cards in his hand to stop me. I start discarding to end my turn when I start thinking wait.... how did that RLK have that much defense in his hand? We check the kids hand and he had over 20 cards in it..... (and this was after the battle LOL) I asked the judges can that battle be redone with the RLK discarding his hand down to 8? I was told no..... because the battle was already over and I had made the mistake of moving to my discard phase.... needless to say I wasnt very happy haha and now I ask every single person I play "how many cards are in your hand?" before I make a RA.

dermo4christ · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2013, 06:37:59 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on March 16, 2013, 06:30:35 PM

The real issue isn't so much a misplay as Player A doing something he wasn't allowed to do. I feel if the gamestate is repairable, regardless of how many phases/turns have passed, then by all means fix it.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2013, 07:55:49 PM »

I agree with what others have posted, that if it can be fixed, then fix it. If there is too much to be undone because of the misplay, then I would say "Play on." There is no hard and fast rule regarding Phases and such, but I am sure most judges and hosts are looking for the least obtrusive way to resolve the issue amicably.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2013, 10:08:07 PM »

Player A plays ANB.
Player B shuffles his discard pile in.

What happens?

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2013, 10:41:49 PM »

I had that happen once (though it was actually the player who played ANB who shuffled his discard pile in...*cough* MJB *cough*)

He simply went through his draw pile and discarded as many as we could both remember. If he drew another card that he thought maybe should have been discarded, he asked me if I remembered.

Master KChief · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2013, 12:05:08 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 16, 2013, 10:41:49 PM

He simply went through his draw pile and discarded as many as we could both remember. If he drew another card that he thought maybe should have been discarded, he asked me if I remembered.

This is what I have a problem with. Games shouldn't hinder upon what can and can't be remembered, only what can be substantially proven. This situation is virtually impossible to prove what was in the discard, especially since neither players are allowed to look in it. This creates an irreparable gamestate.

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:32:42 AM »

Quote

Games shouldn't hinder upon what can and can't be remembered, only what can be substantially proven.

That's why we decided that we would only discard what we both remembered. For example, we both knew which dominants he had already used as well as how many ANBs had already been played.

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2013, 01:51:15 AM »

That's understandable, but like I said, there is virtually no way to reconstruct his exact discard pile. There are more than likely cards neither of you caught, which ultimately alters the course and the outcome of the game. That is what I mean by irreparable; you cannot return the game to the exact previous state it was in. In circumstances like these, what is the by-the-rules protocol?

The Guardian · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2013, 02:22:59 AM »

Back at 2004 Nationals, I used a version of the Devastator combo deck. It was the second round (I didn't use it in the first round) and I pulled the combo off. I was well on my way to winning when a judge walked over and started watching. After a few minutes of observing he stated that a certain card did not work the way I was using it. Because the game had basically been decided at that point, he ruled that the game should be restarted and my opponent given a 1-0 lead to start.

Just to be clear, I am not in any way bitter--at the time I was frustrated that the judge stepped in even though the other player did not question the play, but in no way do I feel like it cost me a chance at winning the tournament.

Now the table talk at 2004 Regionals on the other hand...

browarod · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2013, 12:13:57 PM »

At the only Nats I've ever been to (2011 in MN), there was a round of T1-MP where player A played Mayhem and player B with Nazareth didn't realize it was a cost and drew 6 without shuffling his hand (for a net gain of 6 cards). Nobody caught it until a few turns later and iirc we called a judge over and they said to play it out. Player B ended up winning that round.

So, based on my Nats experience, the "official" stance is to play it out if you're past the phase/turn (don't remember which the judge said) that the error happened in, even if that gives one player an unfair advantage.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2013, 12:29:04 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on March 17, 2013, 01:51:15 AM

That's understandable, but like I said, there is virtually no way to reconstruct his exact discard pile. There are more than likely cards neither of you caught, which ultimately alters the course and the outcome of the game. That is what I mean by irreparable; you cannot return the game to the exact previous state it was in. In circumstances like these, what is the by-the-rules protocol?

Three items:

1) Justin already said we knew which Dominants and how many ANBs I had played. Those were basically all of the cards in my deck that would alter the course of the game.

2) The solution we did come up with penalized me for my mistake (which is as it should be), by getting rid of any mis-remembered cards preferentially from the top of the deck. Although I do not remember this specific instance, I do not think it was ay a higher-level (State or above) tournament. If it was, I believe I would have offered to resign at that point.

3) In a game between Ben Arp and I at the Ohio Nationals I made an "irreparable" mistake in the playing of a combo deck. I immediately "resigned" the game to Ben. (By "resign" I mean we agreed to lock my LS count where it was--either I had GoYS out or Ben had played FA prior to the mistake--and bumped Ben up to 7.) Actually we floundered about for a turn or so before we realized how bad the error was, and then I resigned.

SirNobody · « **Reply #15 on:** March 17, 2013, 02:55:52 PM »

Hey,

I feel like the stance that "a mistake caught in the phase in which it happened, you go back and fix, a mistake caught after the phase in which it happened stands as played" is official, although a quick glance over the tournament guide didn't provide me with any verification.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:13:44 PM »

Quote

2) The solution we did come up with penalized me for my mistake (which is as it should be), by getting rid of any mis-remembered cards preferentially from the top of the deck. Although I do not remember this specific instance, I do not think it was ay a higher-level (State or above) tournament. If it was, I believe I would have offered to resign at that point.

It was a local tournament--just you and me playing T2.

Chris · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:29:55 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on March 17, 2013, 02:55:52 PM

Hey,

I feel like the stance that "a mistake caught in the phase in which it happened, you go back and fix, a mistake caught after the phase in which it happened stands as played" is official, although a quick glance over the tournament guide didn't provide me with any verification.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I like this for consistency's sake. I'm not sure that a ruling that can make or break a game (like it did in the original post) should be handled on a case-by-case basis. I understand wanting to fix things as much as possible, but when people adapt their strategies based on these things, taking it back can be devastating.

The Guardian · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:49:37 PM »

So the player who did not make the misplay ends up being punished?

Just like carrying out special abilities, you do as much as you can to repair the game state.

What is to stop a player from doing something similar to the original example on purpose (during the prep phase) and then immediately moving to the next phase before the opponent realizes it was an illegal play?

I understand that sometimes things happen where repairing the game state is almost impossible, but even in the case like the ANB/shuffled discard pile, it's still the same phase yet it is unlikely to be completely fixed.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2013, 03:54:45 PM »

Quote from: browarod on March 17, 2013, 12:13:57 PM

At the only Nats I've ever been to (2011 in MN), there was a round of T1-MP where player A played Mayhem and player B with Nazareth didn't realize it was a cost and drew 6 without shuffling his hand (for a net gain of 6 cards). Nobody caught it until a few turns later and iirc we called a judge over and they said to play it out. Player B ended up winning that round.

So, based on my Nats experience, the "official" stance is to play it out if you're past the phase/turn (don't remember which the judge said) that the error happened in, even if that gives one player an unfair advantage.

That was actually not realized until after the game so it's not really comparable.

Master KChief · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:36:33 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 17, 2013, 03:49:37 PM

So the player who did not make the misplay ends up being punished?

This.

Quote

What is to stop a player from doing something similar to the original example on purpose (during the prep phase) and then immediately moving to the next phase before the opponent realizes it was an illegal play?

And this. The fault of the misplay lies on the misplayer, and I agree he should be held responsible for it regardless of when it was realized. The other player certainly should not be at a disadvantage just because it wasn't caught in time. Something concrete and consistent would be:

Immediately reparable game state: rectify and continue play
Irreparable game state: game loss

Unfortunately I would see no other way to objectively rule irreparable game states. If they're irreparable, for what reason should the game continue in its damaged state?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2013, 05:28:18 PM »

I also agree that a written rule about phases is a bad idea. What if I made a mistake, and I want to correct it myself out of integrity. Do I really want a game rule that says, "No, you can't do that because the phase already ended?"

I also think that case-by-case is appropriate, since hosts most likely handle things differently at a Local level than they would at a National level.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2013, 05:42:41 PM »

I think that if all players agree on a course of action (letting it slide or trying to repair the previous gamestate) then that should be allowed. If they disagree, then the judge can determine what course of action is best. Punishments could range from having to discard cards from hand/top of deck to awarding a free LS of choice to the opponent to forfeiture (or restarting the game if there is sufficient time, and allowing the opponent to have a 1-0 lead), all depending on the severity of the misplay.

However, if we were to make a rule about when to fix things or let things slide, I would rather it be unable to reset after the next player draws his three cards to begin his turn. Phases are a bit too fluid, and since one player gets to determine when phases pass from one to the next, it could lead to unfair circumstances (as Justin pointed out). But since both players have to agree when the current player's turn ends and the next player draws his cards, it would be more justifiable to allow the mistake to proceed as played. Again, this wouldn't be my preference, but if a concrete rule is needed, it could work better than phases I think.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2013, 11:43:09 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 17, 2013, 05:42:41 PM

I think that if all players agree on a course of action (letting it slide or trying to repair the previous gamestate) then that should be allowed. If they disagree, then the judge can determine what course of action is best.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2013, 02:28:54 PM »

I bring this up again because I made a "misplay" at nationals at the end of one turn and I didn't catch it until catch it until the middle of my next rescue. The scenario was I rescued with Moses and my opponent played Burial on the LS. For whatever reason, I proceeded to discard my Moses. Next RA I used AutO and looked through my deck and couldn't find Moses and then realized I had discarded him. My opponent said I couldn't put Moses back in my territory and the judge agreed.

I felt that I should have been able to fix it because I made a completely illegal play. If we are allowing people to make illegal plays like that a player could hypothetically "discard" a character that was harming the player in their territory and "not realize" it until the next turn.

Thoughts?

I also heard from more than one elder at a big tournament this year that mandatory card actions should be fixed if they are missed (i.e. discarding from hand for 7 Years of Famine if you miss it on your turn). This seems to be inconsistent with how it was handled at nationals.

Kirk

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Author Topic: Misplays (Read 4520 times)

Chris

Chris

browarod

Chris