Author Topic: Michael<play the next enhs? (Read 15896 times)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #50 on:** April 14, 2009, 04:26:34 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on April 14, 2009, 04:19:47 PM

Rab enters battle does his ability but can not because Angel's Sword says when blocked. Meaning when the blocker is presented you get to play.

You are almost correct, except that Character abilities activate IMMEDIATELY when the EC blocks. The two happen at the same time. You keep treating them as if they happen at different times... they don't. EC blocks and SA's activate instantaneously, leaving no room for AS to be inserted inbetween. There is no time gap inbetween those actions. So AS doesnt trigger until the EC blocks, which means the ECs SA and WC enhs will have already completed by that time.

The Schaef · « **Reply #51 on:** April 14, 2009, 04:42:20 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on April 14, 2009, 04:19:47 PM

No Michael enters battle but can not complete his ability because his ability is an ongoing cbn ability.

You're splitting hairs. Of course ongoing abilities carry over but the fact is that each character enters battle and their effects get rolling.

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Meaning when the blocker is presented you get to play.

Correct. So after the blocker has entered battle and carried out his special ability, you get to play.

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Also 2k interrupts and you can not interrupt Michael

Not relevant. You are not interrupting Michael. You are only carrying out your special ability.

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So when a blocker is presented that is when Angel's Sword is activated because it says that on the friggin card!

That's exactly what happens. The special ability of the card is part of presenting the character into battle.

Sean · « **Reply #52 on:** April 14, 2009, 04:49:30 PM »

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So after the blocker has entered battle and carried out his special ability, you get to play.

In the event that Forgotten History is played as part of the blocking special abilities resolving, would you still get to play an Enhancement?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #53 on:** April 14, 2009, 04:55:23 PM »

No, because the battle ends immediately.

Sean · « **Reply #54 on:** April 14, 2009, 05:05:46 PM »

Does that mean that Angel's Sword never triggers? (in that situation)

The Schaef · « **Reply #55 on:** April 14, 2009, 05:10:41 PM »

It triggers, so to speak, but since the battle has ended, there are no more opportunities to play Enhancements, so nothing happens.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #56 on:** April 14, 2009, 05:11:19 PM »

There was a ruling about Assyrian archer not being able to discard himself if the battle ended with Forgotten History, that is a triggered ability as well.

So, I say AS never gets to activate.

Sean · « **Reply #57 on:** April 14, 2009, 05:21:14 PM »

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It triggers, so to speak, but since the battle has ended, there are no more opportunities to play Enhancements, so nothing happens.

If it triggers, why does it matter if there is a battle?

Altar of Burnt Offering allows for Enhancements to be played outside of battle by triggering during the preparation phase. Wouldn't Angel's Sword grant a similar opportunity iff the Hero holding it is still in play?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #58 on:** April 14, 2009, 05:40:42 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on April 14, 2009, 04:19:47 PM

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Why?

Michael enters battle and completes his ability.
Rab enters battle and completes his ability.
Now that's done, Michael gets to play the "first" Enhancement.
No Michael enters battle but can not complete his ability because his ability is an ongoing cbn ability. Now Angel's Sword does not complete the ability because there is no EC in battle yet. Rab enters battle does his ability but can not because Angel's Sword says when blocked. Meaning when the blocker is presented you get to play. Also 2k interrupts and you can not interrupt Michael so that should be another reason for Michael to play. So when a blocker is presented that is when Angel's Sword is activated because it says that on the friggin card! So this ruling is wrong. Angel's Sword should play over any human because when blocked Angel's Sword activates.

So, By your logic I should be able to CM BEFORE your ability to not be d/c'd or UW before your ability to be captured kicks in?

Quote from: MitchRobStew on April 14, 2009, 01:02:42 AM

Only in Redemption would "play the first enhancement" be the same thing as "play the next enhancement".

You DO play the first enhancement. It's Angel's sword. So either, it becomes complete fail, or we try to fix bad wording.

The Schaef · « **Reply #59 on:** April 14, 2009, 05:51:56 PM »

Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 05:21:14 PM

If it triggers, why does it matter if there is a battle?

...beeeecause you can only play Enhancements in battle?

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Wouldn't Angel's Sword grant a similar opportunity iff the Hero holding it is still in play?

Why? What power does it grant to play an Enhancement in a phase other than the Battle Phase?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #60 on:** April 14, 2009, 06:24:08 PM »

Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 05:21:14 PM

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It triggers, so to speak, but since the battle has ended, there are no more opportunities to play Enhancements, so nothing happens.
If it triggers, why does it matter if there is a battle?

As said, you need a battle to play enhancements in. Not counting the time for human actions, Once Forgotten History is played, the battle is pretty much over instantly and characters leave battle/die, meaning theres no more hero left in battle.

Sean · « **Reply #61 on:** April 14, 2009, 06:29:06 PM »

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Why? What power does it grant to play an Enhancement in a phase other than the Battle Phase?

The current play as for Angel's Sword says:

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If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play the first enhancement on this character.

Would not the updated play as be:
"If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play an Enhancement on this character."

Nowhere is there a distinction or requirement that the Enhancement be played in battle. Other cards that allow for an Enhancement to be played say "in battle". Lacking Sleep, for example. The wording is more similar to Altar of Burnt Offering, which allows for playing of Enhancements outside of the battle phase because of special ability. Special abilities circumvent normal game play rules. So Angel's Sword's special ability would circumvent the normal rule that Enhancements can only be played in battle.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #62 on:** April 14, 2009, 06:42:30 PM »

I realize that this might be a little off-topic, but Lambo said that if Assyrian Archer d/c's a hero and then plays Forgotten History, he doesn't have to be discarded? Why is this? Does this mean that Assyrian Archer can d/c another hero in a territory next he blocks?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #63 on:** April 14, 2009, 06:57:31 PM »

Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 06:29:06 PM

Nowhere is there a distinction or requirement that the Enhancement be played in battle.

Cool! So I can play enhancements outside of battle on my ET as well? It just says I can play an enhancement, not specifying battle. Awesome, I dont even have to put him into battle to play AOCP.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #64 on:** April 14, 2009, 07:14:56 PM »

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There was a ruling about Assyrian archer not being able to discard himself if the battle ended with Forgotten History, that is a triggered ability as well.

I think that involved using 2KH to interrupt his pending discard (which is ongoing) and ending the battle before it reactivated.

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I realize that this might be a little off-topic, but Lambo said that if Assyrian Archer d/c's a hero and then plays Forgotten History, he doesn't have to be discarded? Why is this? Does this mean that Assyrian Archer can d/c another hero in a territory next he blocks?

Hopefully the above answers the first 2 questions. For the last one, yes he can discard another hero next time he blocks.

Sean · « **Reply #65 on:** April 14, 2009, 07:57:55 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on April 14, 2009, 06:57:31 PM

Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 06:29:06 PM
Nowhere is there a distinction or requirement that the Enhancement be played in battle.

Cool! So I can play enhancements outside of battle on my ET as well? It just says I can play an enhancement, not specifying battle. Awesome, I dont even have to put him into battle to play AOCP.

Be constructive please.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #66 on:** April 14, 2009, 08:08:26 PM »

I am. If you say Angels Sword can play regardless of if theres a battle or not just because it doesnt specify "In battle," then why couldn't ET? Its the same thing isn't it?

Sean · « **Reply #67 on:** April 14, 2009, 08:17:29 PM »

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Awesome, I dont even have to put him into battle to play AOCP.

This has nothing to do with the discussion. Nobody is questioning the need to activate special abilities by putting characters into battle.

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If you say Angels Sword can play regardless of if theres a battle or not just because it doesnt specify "In battle," then why couldn't ET?

Good point, I can add that to my questioning. Why can't I play an Enhancement on a Hero that isn't in battle with Ethiopian Treasurer's special ability? His ability is similar to Altar of Burnt Offering too. Just for clarification, not kidding.

The Schaef · « **Reply #68 on:** April 14, 2009, 08:20:53 PM »

Quote from: Sean on April 14, 2009, 06:29:06 PM

Nowhere is there a distinction or requirement that the Enhancement be played in battle.

Your logic is backwards. The rule is that Enhancements must be played in battle. Therefore, to break the rule, you need to specify an exception. Which is exactly what your own example of Altar of Burnt Offering provides, and is exactly what Angel's Sword does not.

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Other cards that allow for an Enhancement to be played say "in battle". Lacking Sleep, for example.

Lacking Sleep and Weakness are the only examples of this kind of language. There are over 30 other cards that do not. This is a weak argument.

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So Angel's Sword's special ability would circumvent the normal rule that Enhancements can only be played in battle.

There is no language that says the Enhancement can be played outside of battle. Therefore, the only rule bypassed by this card is the rule that you check for initiative before you get to play your card. Since the battle is over, no more cards can be played in battle and the question of initiative is moot.

Sean · « **Reply #69 on:** April 14, 2009, 08:27:15 PM »

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The rule is that Enhancements must be played in battle. Therefore, to break the rule, you need to specify an exception. Which is exactly what your own example of Altar of Burnt Offering provides, and is exactly what Angel's Sword does not.

Alright, that makes sense.

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Lacking Sleep and Weakness are the only examples of this kind of language.

Without Food.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #70 on:** April 14, 2009, 08:52:13 PM »

I have four Michael Kings for trade, message me. Fact that this game is constantly being errated and changed makes it not that great of a game. There needs to be more playtesters that are EXPERIENCED and know the rules so these things won't happen again. Because right now silver will not be used. Other than capn/tsa competitively.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #71 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:08:47 PM »

Why? You don't like that the game is changed so everything makes sense?

Would you prefer the game to not work under a solid set of rules, so people have to bicker and debate every game about what happens? I see this as an improvement to the game.

The Schaef · « **Reply #72 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:30:59 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on April 14, 2009, 08:52:13 PM

I have four Michael Kings for trade, message me.

Since you think they're useless, I suggest you just give them to me.

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Fact that this game is constantly being errated and changed makes it not that great of a game.

I think your definition of "constant" and mine are drastically different.

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There needs to be more playtesters that are EXPERIENCED and know the rules so these things won't happen again.

Experienced and know the rules, as opposed to what. Do you even know who you're talking about when you make these accusations and personal attacks?

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Because right now silver will not be used. Other than capn/tsa competitively.

Sorry you don't like silver. I love it, and half the kids in my playgroup use it. They'll really appreciate your worthless Michaels.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #73 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:31:22 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on April 14, 2009, 09:08:47 PM

Why? You don't like that the game is changed so everything makes sense?

You think it makes sense to change the plain English meaning of PLAY THE FIRST ENHANCEMENT to mean "play an enhancement any old time after the evil guys get to play all their enhancements"? Makes sense?? ?? ?? SENSE?!?!?!?!?!?!? In what possible PARALLEL universe does that make any sense?

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Would you prefer the game to not work under a solid set of rules,

About as solid as a putrid lump of jello sitting on a festering layer of quicksand which overlays a fetid swamp built in the middle of a brackish lake. If the rules were so solid we wouldn't have to change them every single NIT-PICKING time someone has a whim or decides that the old rulings aren't good enough any more. Is this game had some REAL play testers, it wouldn't be a quivering mass of contradiction wrapped in the blanket of oxymoron.

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so people have to bicker and debate every game about what happens?

Quit your belly aching and carping. You're just whining because I have you stone cold solid in the crushing grip of inexorable logic. It's deontological also.

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I see this as an improvement to the game.

This is a LESS THAN ZERO PERCENT improvement. We've been playing the same exact way since Kings, and all of these new fangled "interpretations" are just destroying the game. I might as well burn all my cards--no forget that--burning is too good for them. I'm going to feed all my cards into a wood chipper and use what comes out for kitty litter.

How does this ruling stack up on my Rage-O-Meter?

<== Watch out. I am EIGHT angry.

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on April 14, 2009, 08:52:13 PM

I have four Michael Kings for trade, message me.

Ooooooo. Can I have one? That would be awesome. Thx.

@TimMierz: Do you like how I worked LESS THAN ZERO PERCENT into the discussion?

The Schaef · « **Reply #74 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:35:08 PM »

I'm trying to figure out if I need to delete your comment and close the thread. Meaning, if your intention was to be boisterously humorous, it wasn't clear enough that I could tell one way or the other.

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Author Topic: Michael<play the next enhs? (Read 15896 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef