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So what I heard is Michael (who can not be negated) does not get initiative even when he has Angel's Sword (play the first when blocked by a human) against a Rabshekah/2k, Ner/Swift Horses, Naaman/Chariots and horses. How is this? The EE's interrupt...INTERRUPT! You CAN NOT Interrupt Michael. You can d2 but Michael gets to play. Can someone clarify this, please! How does this work, it makes no sense. Also would that mean that any new EC who grants himself iniative gets to play against Michael?
If so then I have 4 Michael's for trade.

Lol YMT. If this ruling is correct about Michael not playing the first against 2k horses and such then I'll trade them off.

All Kings sorry.

Yeah, the problem boils down to the fact that before michael gets to play his enhancement, that all the special abilities on the blocking EC have to be completed.  King merodockbaladan for instance has part of his SA that says that he can play an enhancement from 2 kings as part of his SA.  If his SA is activated at the same time that he is presented, then they ran into a problem.  The problem is, does angel's sword "suspend" any "play the next/any enhancement" abilities or does angels sword have to get in line behind others that are activated in a manner that may force them to go before Angels sword due to Special Ability Mechanics.

With the horsies that say interrupt ... and play next enhancement, they are weapon class enhancements and weapon class enhancements are actually suppose to be resolved before even banding abilities.  since they are a special designation of card, they are seen as abilities that belong with the blocker (though not gained abilities such as those granted by set asides) since they activate with the blocker, they complete the same way in the same fashion.

So the problem came down to this: Is angels sword ( and those like it such as helmut of brass) going to be a seperate class enhancements that enable the hero to "suspend" the normal order of SA activation, or is it just another version of play next enhancement.  It was ruled by Rob that AS and those like it will be seen as cards that simply let the holder play an enhancement.

I am with you though in seeing it that way on Michael.  I do not like the fact that an Angels sword on michael, can be trumped by any schmo with a horse.  I think that, against michael, they should draw their cards, but wait to get behind Michaels first enhancement because that part of his SA cannot be negated and his CBN enhancement was played first.

I understand how it will work on everyone else but this deal with Michael not being able to play first enhancement even when he has AS on has got me all confused.

First, I want to know why a second thread was started about the exact same subject that has been under discussion here.

Second, if you would actually read the posts here, you wouldn't be asking this and there would no need for more discussion.  The ruling actually makes a lot of sense if you step back and stop thinking of micheal with AS as some all-mighty being.  Rules are rules and even a CBN character can get around the order of play.

There sould be some discussion about a change like that.

Agreed. But, I want to get Hiatus' Michaels first in case the ruling goes back the other way. 

Basically, "play first enhancement" has been demoted to "Play an enhancement"  There will be no separate category for play first enhancement because now that there are several different cards that allow themselves to play an enhancement, those cards on defense are likely going to go first since they are activated after the hero is presented.

The horsies do not interrupt anything on michael, because his enhancement is not read as (play an enhancement when blocked by a human EC.  so when all the SA's on the HUman EC are completed, then Michael gets to play an enhancement...it just may not be the first one.

I re-read the discussion today.  IF you follow the whole thing, it makes sense.  You can thank Lamborgini Diablo for "demoting" Angels sword if you want to blame anyone, but he was the one who correctly found the flaw in the order of operations that ultimately led to the crisis of "Do we make a septerate class for "play first enhancement" ro just make it part of "play and enhancement"".  IT was actually quite insightful on his part.

but evidently everyone in Minnesota had been playing it correctly for years, but then again they are perfect so who would suspect otherwise. *dripping with sarcasm*

Apparently, they've been playing it this way in Rochester for years, so I'm surprised that you've not heard of this interpretation before.

I have been to 20 tournaments in Rochester and it has never been interpreted that way. I'm not sure what Red Dragon Thorn is talking about.

The deal is, "first enhancement" or "next enhancement" must wait for ALL special abilities on characters and enhancements to complete.  Then you can play an enhancement.  I used to think that "play first" implied two abilities: First, a triggered "play an enhancement" ability, and second, a "opponent can't play an enhancement until after you do" ability.  Rob ruled that the second ability is not part of "play first/next" at all.  All "play first/next" does is let you "play an enhancement" after the string of abilities on an EC and its weapon have completed.

The change is fine and makes sense and has been well explained because we had this discussion. All is good in Redemption Land.

So please, sell your copies of Michael/MS to YMT.  That way he and his playgroup can have that combo ready to go when the new set releases this summer.  That set might contain a card or two that makes this ruling not hurt heroes quite so much. 

Don't have any to sell. We give them away to "Random Little Kids" at Game nights so They can beat SirNobody when he comes to town.

Don't have any to sell. We give them away to "Random Little Kids" at Game nights so They can beat SirNobody when he comes to town.

Too bad about this ruling, everytribe. Now we'll have to find a good card we can give the the Random Little Kids.

(And by "we'll" and "we," I mean--of course--"you'll" and "you." )

Yes it works.  You just play the good enhancement AFTER the EC and his weapon abilities complete (including any evil "play an enhancement" ability).

Where was the original ruling for this made?  Was it in a recent thread?

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14975.msg235171#msg235171

I re-read the discussion today.  IF you follow the whole thing, it makes sense.  You can thank Lamborgini Diablo for "demoting" Angels sword if you want to blame anyone, but he was the one who correctly found the flaw in the order of operations that ultimately led to the crisis of "Do we make a septerate class for "play first enhancement" ro just make it part of "play and enhancement"".  IT was actually quite insightful on his part.

Hehehe. Yeah, I was arguing with someone about how AS works, and then it hit me... how can AS come before weapon enhs, but banding is fine, when weapons are ranked higher than banding in the order of operations. I had that order hammered into my brain when i tried to argue that placed CTB enhs should activate before banding... so I know it very well. 

All in all though, I think people need to stop thinking Mike + AS = total win. It made no sense for that combo to insert itself into instantaneous game functions when even CM couldnt insert itself between say... ET and AoCP. It was inconsistant. We want this game to be consistant do we not?

It may be simpler, but silver just took a huge hit in power.  You can't go mono silver in type two now because you will never get initiative to play a card.

Got used to?  There wasn't anything to get used to.  It was ruled that way from the release of 2KHorses.
There wasn't anything faulty about it either.  First simply means first...except in Redemption.