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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: lp670sv on September 04, 2011, 04:22:39 PM
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Would one of the elders please explain to me mug michaels ability CBN? It says that nowhere on the card and every other card has to specify it CBN except this one? Why? What is the logic behind this? I'm very confused on this.
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I'm not an Elder, so take this as you may, but abilities that grant CBN, CBI, or CBP are always inherently CBN. This has been the default ever since the Warriors Michael was created back in 1999.
As far as the logic:
1. Enhancements played by Michael cannot be negated.
2. King of Tyrus blocks Michael, so now Michael's ability is negated.
3. Now enhancements played by Michael are negated.
4. This now defies #1.
Basically, the decision to make CBN/CBP/CBI abilities inherently CBN is based on allowing CBN/CBP/CBI to do what they are supposed to do anyway.
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I'm not an Elder, so take this as you may, but abilities that grant CBN, CBI, or CBP are always inherently CBN. This has been the default ever since the Warriors Michael was created back in 1999.
As far as the logic:
1. Enhancements played by Michael cannot be negated.
2. King of Tyrus blocks Michael, so now Michael's ability is negated.
3. Now enhancements played by Michael are negated.
4. This now defies #1.
Basically, the decision to make CBN/CBP/CBI abilities inherently CBN is based on allowing CBN/CBP/CBI to do what they are supposed to do anyway.
Just to be clear. An ability that negates a characters ability can negate Michael's & Thomas's ability? So if I banded Michael to Captain then Michael's ability is negated?
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No, you cannot negate Michael's ability. YMT was using that as an example of what could happen if it wasn't ruled the way it is.
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Just to be clear. An ability that negates a characters ability can negate Michael's & Thomas's ability? So if I banded Michael to Captain then Michael's ability is negated?
No. That would be making it unclear. ;)
Michael's ability (as well as any other ability that grants CBN/CBP/CBI) can not be negated under any circumstance.
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No, you cannot negate Michael's ability. YMT was using that as an example of what could happen if it wasn't ruled the way it is.
That's what I thought it was, but thought there was a ruling change. *wipes sweat from brow*
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That's the point of negating though.
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Just to be clear. An ability that negates a characters ability can negate Michael's & Thomas's ability? So if I banded Michael to Captain then Michael's ability is negated?
No. That would be making it unclear. ;)
Michael's ability (as well as any other ability that grants CBN/CBP/CBI) can not be negated under any circumstance.
so going forward, if it says "cannot be prevented" "cannot be interrupted" is equal to "cannot be negated"?
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That's the point of negating though.
What would then be the point of Cannot be Negated? ;)
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so going forward, if it says "cannot be prevented" "cannot be interrupted" is equal to "cannot be negated"?
No. You are taking what I have said completely out of context.
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so going forward, if it says "cannot be prevented" "cannot be interrupted" is equal to "cannot be negated"?
No. You are taking what I have said completely out of context.
Not trying to. Just trying to make sure I understand completely. So it is as it has been with no ruling changes? :)
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Not trying to. Just trying to make sure I understand completely. So it is as it has been with no ruling changes? :)
I never said there was a ruling change. I was trying to help answer lp670sv's question.
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Not trying to. Just trying to make sure I understand completely. So it is as it has been with no ruling changes? :)
I never said there was a ruling change. I was trying to help answer lp670sv's question.
I'm really not battling you here. It just seemed based on the way I read lp670sv's question, there was some ruling change. I just wanted to make sure the ruling was as it has been. I'm just making sure I understand. ;D
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My understanding was that lp670sv did not understand why Michael's ability can not be negated, or more specifically what the logic behind the ruling was. This is a common question that is asked at least once a year by people who have not already been privy to each prior discussion about it. We all ultimately want to know the reason for what card abilities can and cannot do, so we can plan our decks or rule tournaments accordingly (and accurately).
The bottom line is that nothing can stop a card that grants another card CBN/CBI/CBP from granting that power. "Cannot be negated" abilities cannnot be negated by anything, directly or indirectly.
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My understanding was that lp670sv did not understand why Michael's ability can not be negated, or more specifically what the logic behind the ruling was. This is a common question that is asked at least once a year by people who have not already been privy to each prior discussion about it. We all ultimately want to know the reason for what card abilities can and cannot do, so we can plan our decks or rule tournaments accordingly (and accurately).
The bottom line is that nothing can stop a card that grants another card CBN/CBI/CBP from granting that power. "Cannot be negated" abilities cannnot be negated by anything, directly or indirectly.
Perfect. Like I said I just was under a misunderstanding thinking there was a change to that ruling based on the way I read it. ;)
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I never knew this. That's awesome 8)
So here's another question: by my understanding of this, Josh THP's CBN ability is CBN. How about the other part of his ability? Would he still be immune to Pale Green if there's an angel and my opponent has Confusion of Mind up?
Joshua the High Priest (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: 7 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: Enhancements used by this Hero cannot be negated. If a silver brigade Hero is in play, this Hero is immune to pale green brigade. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Zerubbabel's Temple High Priest (House of Eleazar) • Verse: Zechariah 3:1 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
Confusion of Mind (Pi)
Type: Curse • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 0 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate all special abilities on opponents’ Heroes. An opponent may discard two good Enhancements (or a good Dominant) from hand to discard this card. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Deuteronomy 28:28 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
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No. Only the CBN granting abilities themselves are inherently CBN, not everything else on the card.
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Cannot be negated = Cannot be negated. Period.
Cannot be interrupted = Cannot be interrupted. Period. (It can be prevented, but only before it is played).
Cannot be prevented = Cannot be prevented. Period. (It can be interrupted, but only after it has been played).
You cannot remove the CBI, CBP, CBN part of a special ability. You must try and work around it; as per the ways mentioned above.
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Cannot be negated = Cannot be negated. Period.
Cannot be interrupted = Cannot be interrupted. Period. (It can be prevented, but only before it is played).
Cannot be prevented = Cannot be prevented. Period. (It can be interrupted, but only after it has been played).
The rule actually goes a step further - abilities that grant CBP/CBI/CBN are CBP/CBI/CBN themselves to the same cards that they grant CBP/CBI/CBN from.
Examples:
The lost soul that says "the first evil enhancement played is CBP by a good card" is CBP by good cards. But it can be prevented by evil and neutral cards, such as the FBTN LS.
Asaph says "Good enhancements involving music cannot be negated by evil cards". This ability is CBN by evil cards, but can be negated by neutral and good cards, such as Blessings.
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The lost soul that says "the first evil enhancement played is CBP by a good card" is CBP by good cards. But it can be prevented by evil and neutral cards, such as the FBTN LS.
Asaph says "Good enhancements involving music cannot be negated by evil cards". This ability is CBN by evil cards, but can be negated by neutral and good cards, such as Blessings.
No sorry you are wrong on both accounts, I believe. I am not 100% positive about the ls example, but the Asaph one is wrong. What you're misunderstanding is that the enhancements played by Asaph CAN be negated by good cards, because his ability allows it, but his ability itself that is granting that cbn status CANNOT be negated. So if I played blessings, like you said, my opponent still cannot negate my music enhancements.
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The lost soul that says "the first evil enhancement played is CBP by a good card" is CBP by good cards. But it can be prevented by evil and neutral cards, such as the FBTN LS.
Asaph says "Good enhancements involving music cannot be negated by evil cards". This ability is CBN by evil cards, but can be negated by neutral and good cards, such as Blessings.
No sorry you are wrong on both accounts, I believe. I am not 100% positive about the ls example, but the Asaph one is wrong. What you're misunderstanding is that the enhancements played by Asaph CAN be negated by good cards, because his ability allows it, but his ability itself that is granting that cbn status CANNOT be negated. So if I played blessings, like you said, my opponent still cannot negate my music enhancements.
Actually, there was a big ruling thread about Asaph. Jmhartz would know, because he started it.
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Covenant with Death (FF2)
Type: Curse • Brigade: Pale Green/Brown • Ability: 2 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate characters. Restrict players from playing Enhancements unless a character is opposed in battle. Cannot be negated. •
Does this negate a character than cannot be prevented?
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No.
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This still doesn't make any sense to me that something that does not specify it cannot be negated, cannot be negated. Every other ruling I've seen I've been able to at least see where the Elder's were coming from, even if I don't agree with the ruling, but this I just don't understand
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The lost soul that says "the first evil enhancement played is CBP by a good card" is CBP by good cards. But it can be prevented by evil and neutral cards, such as the FBTN LS.
Asaph says "Good enhancements involving music cannot be negated by evil cards". This ability is CBN by evil cards, but can be negated by neutral and good cards, such as Blessings.
No sorry you are wrong on both accounts, I believe. I am not 100% positive about the ls example, but the Asaph one is wrong. What you're misunderstanding is that the enhancements played by Asaph CAN be negated by good cards, because his ability allows it, but his ability itself that is granting that cbn status CANNOT be negated. So if I played blessings, like you said, my opponent still cannot negate my music enhancements.
Actually, there was a big ruling thread about Asaph. Jmhartz would know, because he started it.
Wait... I'm wrong on this? Can someone please point me to this thread, this is TOTALLY new to me.
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http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/cbp-ls/msg400111/#msg400111
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/asaphmagnificat/
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I don't see any Elders ruling in the Asaph thread. I think this is a faulty conclusion of the LS thread. Although good cards can negate enhancements used by Asaph, the CBN against evil cards still remains. You can play Blessings on Asaph, and evil enhancements still cannot negate Asaph's music enhancements.
You can not indirectly negate a CBN/CBI/CBP-granting ability.
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You can not indirectly negate a CBN/CBI/CBP-granting ability.
Who's saying anything about indirectly? Magnificat/Blessings straight up negate Asaph.
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You can not indirectly negate a CBN/CBI/CBP-granting ability.
Who's saying anything about indirectly? Magnificat/Blessings straight up negate Asaph.
Scenario:
Asaph RA
Asaph plays Blessings
Asaph plays a music enhancement that CBP
An evil enhancement interrupts the last enhancement
That evil enhancement has interrupted a music enhancement played by Asaph. Asaph's SA says that music enhancements played by Asaph CBN by evil cards. So, Asaph's music enhencement is being interrupted by an evil card, which is not possible. That is indirect negation of CBN.
You simply cannot directly or indirectly negate a CBN/CBI/CBP-granting ability under any circumstance.
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Exactly. And my understanding is that this is how it has ALWAYS been played, this idea of "granting cbn with a condition can be negated by something of that condition" is totally new.
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Lydia says "Lydia cannot be taken prisoner" yet if you negate her special ability you can then capture her. Is that doing something that "is not possible"? I see no difference with your example. The whole point of negate is to reverse (or prevent) things that cards say to do (or can't be done, in the case of some abilities).
I think this is a faulty conclusion of the LS thread.
How exactly is this "faulty"? The CBP LS says "cannot be prevented by a good card" and it can itself be negated by the FBTN LS (a non-good card). How is that any different than extrapolating it to Asaph who says "cannot be negated by an evil card" and can himself be negated by Magnificat (a non-evil card). I really don't see where you think we've made an incorrect logical step.
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The difference though, browarod, is that there is not a rule that "cannot be taken prisoner" abilities are cbn. There IS indeed a rule that abilities granting cbn status are cbn. That's a rule, and there's no reason to believe it should be changed, just because there is a condition on the cbn.
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That's fine and dandy, but Asaph doesn't grant cbn status, he grants "cbn by evil cards" status. It's not the same thing.
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Show me a distinction in the REG.
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The distinction is on the cards.... "Cannot be negated" is not the same ability as "cannot be negated by evil cards" so I don't understand why you're treating them as exactly the same.
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I'm gonna just go ahead and stick to my thread. =) Responded to.