Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: LordZardeck on February 04, 2012, 10:11:30 PM
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Is michael CBN?
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Is michael CBN?
one of my greatest frustrations in redemption. Yes. Michael's ability is inherently CBN.
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Enhancements he uses are CBN
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Enhancements he uses are CBN
abilities that grant CBN status are inherently CBN. So Michael himself is also CBN.
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Just to confirm, yes, Michael's ability, along with all other abilities that grant CBN status to another card, are, themselves, CBN.
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Just to confirm, yes, Michael's ability, along with all other abilities that grant CBN status to another card, are, themselves, CBN.
+1.
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Just to confirm, yes, Michael's ability, along with all other abilities that grant CBN status to another card, are, themselves, CBN.
I remember a little while back that there was some disagreement over whether CBP/CBI are also inherently CBN. Was there ever any closure on that?
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Just to confirm, yes, Michael's ability, along with all other abilities that grant CBN status to another card, are, themselves, CBN.
I remember a little while back that there was some disagreement over whether CBP/CBI are also inherently CBN. Was there ever any closure on that?
CBP can be interrupted and then prevented, but can not be outright prevented. CBI can never be interrupted, only prevented.
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So if enhancements played by my hero cannot be prevented, and my opponent blocks with KoT, then an enhancement I play is now prevented?
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So if enhancements played by my hero cannot be prevented, and my opponent blocks with KoT, then an enhancement I play is now prevented?
Correct...it is interrupted and prevented by kot
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As KOT's ability only activates ones I believe that enhancements already in battle are negated, but since the later enhancements cannot be prevented they still work. don't hold me too that.
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FYI, conditional Cannot be Negated cards are conditionally CBN. So if something says "Enhancements used by __ are CBN by an evil card", it can be negated by a neutral or good card, (that is, you can negate the "Enhancements used by ___ are CBN by an evil card", [as well as the enhancements themselves.])
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Who woulda thunk a thread asking if Michael is CBN would have so many comments. ??? :P
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So if enhancements played by my hero cannot be prevented, and my opponent blocks with KoT, then an enhancement I play is now prevented?
Correct...it is interrupted and prevented by kot
I disagree with this, and I believe it would be an incorrect ruling. The whole idea of CBP was to get through FBTN.
FYI, conditional Cannot be Negated cards are conditionally CBN. So if something says "Enhancements used by __ are CBN by an evil card", it can be negated by a neutral or good card, (that is, you can negate the "Enhancements used by ___ are CBN by an evil card", [as well as the enhancements themselves.])
This is what I was trying to remember. Was this the final ruling?
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I'm fairly sure any ability that grants CBN/CBI/CBP conditionally or unconditionally are CBN in and of themselves (because otherwise you could indirectly interrupt, prevent or negate a CBN/CBI/CBP card which we can't) But I have been known to be wrong from time to time.
But to answer your original question, yes, Michael's ability is CBN.
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So if enhancements played by my hero cannot be prevented, and my opponent blocks with KoT, then an enhancement I play is now prevented?
Correct...it is interrupted and prevented by kot
I disagree with this, and I believe it would be an incorrect ruling. The whole idea of CBP was to get through FBTN.
lp is correct.
As KOT's ability only activates once I believe that enhancements already in battle are negated, but since the later enhancements cannot be prevented they still work.
FYI, conditional Cannot be Negated cards are conditionally CBN. So if something says "Enhancements used by __ are CBN by an evil card", it can be negated by a neutral or good card, (that is, you can negate the "Enhancements used by ___ are CBN by an evil card", [as well as the enhancements themselves.])
This is what I was trying to remember. Was this the final ruling?
I'm almost positive it was. To avoid loops, status of cards cannot change. Once a CBP, always a CBP.
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A cannot be prevented ability can be interrupted. Once interrupted, it can then be prevented.
From the REG. This means that if I have a hero that makes enhancements CBP, King of Tyrus should be able to stop me, because he's interrupting that ability. On the other hand, Covenant of Death wouldn't stop me, because it's trying to prevent that ability, and cannot, as per that section of the REG.
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A cannot be prevented ability can be interrupted. Once interrupted, it can then be prevented.
From the REG. This means that if I have a hero that makes enhancements CBP, King of Tyrus should be able to stop me, because he's interrupting that ability. On the other hand, Covenant of Death wouldn't stop me, because it's trying to prevent that ability, and cannot, as per that section of the REG.
At one time I would have agreed with you, but apparently CBP means cannot be stopped before hand, and CBI means cannot be stopped afterward. Since interrupts are an instant ability, only the prevent part of KoT's ability is on going. He interrupts and prevents everything before he enters battle, and prevents everything afterward.
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I think your logic is flawed, and is the main reason I have the problem with negate working as an "interrupt and prevent" ability.
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FYI, conditional Cannot be Negated cards are conditionally CBN. So if something says "Enhancements used by __ are CBN by an evil card", it can be negated by a neutral or good card, (that is, you can negate the "Enhancements used by ___ are CBN by an evil card", [as well as the enhancements themselves.])
This is what I was trying to remember. Was this the final ruling?
[/quote]
Found it. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/fbtn-lost-soul-vs-cannot-be-prevented-lost-soul/msg416893/#msg416893)
I think your logic is flawed, and is the main reason I have the problem with negate working as an "interrupt and prevent" ability.
"Cannot be prevented" means that the special ability activates when the card is played, regardless of any negate or prevent ability that is already affecting battle.
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Well, that ruling just makes things more confusing. I wish that were not the case. This is ultimately why the Michael question comes up every year. People interpret Michael's ability as conditional - it only applies to his enhancements, not to him. The previous "misunderstanding" (using the Elders' wording) that all CBN/CBP/CBI abilities are themselves CBN/CBP/CBI was logical and consistent and did not have unnecessary exceptions.
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It's very simple:
CBN...CBN...CBN...CBN, all day, all the time.
CBP...CBP...CBP...CBP, all day, all the time.
CBI...CBI...CBI...CBI, all day, all the time.
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It's very simple:
CBN...CBN...CBN...CBN, all day, all the time.
CBP...CBP...CBP...CBP, all day, all the time.
CBI...CBI...CBI...CBI, all day, all the time.
Woo-hoo! You should be making the rules! ;D
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KoT blocks. I play Counsel of Abigail which can not be prevented by an evil card. It works. I RA. I am blocked by an EC. I play Counsel of Abigail, he plays Lurking to band in KoT. Counsel of Abigail does not work.
Negate means interrupt and prevent.
Interrupt is an instant ability.
Prevent is on going.
Any BTN character interrupts everything instantly when brought into battle, then prevents anything after this. A CBI enhancement does NOT work against a btn character.
A CBP DOES work against a CBN character.
Michael was made years ago.
Neither his CBN ability, or his enhancements, can NEVER be negated.
If a btn character is in battle and you play an interrupt do something- CBP, then it works.
If a btn character is in a CBI enh doesn't work.
The Rabshekah vs TSA. Rabshekah plays 2k, now TSA's ability is temporarily interrupted. You can now play Stocks on TSA. TSA can play a negate and it WOULD work. Once the negate is played the battle recerts back to btn.
Anything else?
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What happens when a cbp ignore comes against a btn character? What about cbp lost soul if played after fbtn?
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What happens when a cbp ignore comes against a btn character?
Then the btn character is ignored.
What about cbp lost soul if played after fbtn?
Do you mean during battle phase the cbp lost soul was drawn while the btn ls is out?
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KoT blocks. I play Counsel of Abigail which can not be prevented by an evil card. It works. I RA. I am blocked by an EC. I play Counsel of Abigail, he plays Lurking to band in KoT. Counsel of Abigail does not work.
Negate means interrupt and prevent.
Interrupt is an instant ability.
Prevent is on going.
Any BTN character interrupts everything instantly when brought into battle, then prevents anything after this. A CBI enhancement does NOT work against a btn character.
A CBP DOES work against a CBN character.
Michael was made years ago.
Neither his CBN ability, or his enhancements, can NEVER be negated.
If a btn character is in battle and you play an interrupt do something- CBP, then it works.
If a btn character is in a CBI enh doesn't work.
The Rabshekah vs TSA. Rabshekah plays 2k, now TSA's ability is temporarily interrupted. You can now play Stocks on TSA. TSA can play a negate and it WOULD work. Once the negate is played the battle recerts back to btn.
Anything else?
^This. Thanks for saying it so well.
@Hobbit. CBP ignore works if played after the BTN character was in battle. CBP LS is also CBP, but only by the same condition on the card, so it will be prevented by FBTN. I think. I don't have the card in front of me.
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Anything else?
Well, just the whole issue that I brought up about conditional CBN/CBP/CBI. Read through the thread that Ring Wraith linked to see what we are talking about. That is what I have issue with, not FBTN and Michael.
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This thread may help you understand CBP/CBI/CBN better:
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/cbp/msg337771/#msg337771 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/cbp/msg337771/#msg337771)
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I nominate this for FAQ's.
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Duly Noted.
I've had 1 day off since the new year rolled around - My second one is supposedly happening on Tue. That's when I'll be doing a bunch of work on the FAQ thread - If there are any other issues that should be added to it, please PM me and let me know.