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Quote from: Browa on March 07, 2016, 03:56:40 AMI actually disagree with the ruling. Heal includes an implicit search, just like exchange, but is not a "search ability" (neither is exchange). Music Leader specifies "draw or search ability" whereas Signet Ring simply restricts from "searching." A heal searches but is not a search ability so I would think that Signet Ring would restrict it but it would not trigger Music Leader.You're correct that a heal does not trigger Music Leader because healing is not a search ability.The point of my question was not specifically related to Music Leader, but to establish that healing a character in the discard pile requires an implied search.
I actually disagree with the ruling. Heal includes an implicit search, just like exchange, but is not a "search ability" (neither is exchange). Music Leader specifies "draw or search ability" whereas Signet Ring simply restricts from "searching." A heal searches but is not a search ability so I would think that Signet Ring would restrict it but it would not trigger Music Leader.
What is the difference between looking and selecting a card and a search? Is it just the contents are made known to you by looking first? I'm just curious since that what searching in essence does.
Quote from: The Schaefer on May 18, 2016, 07:31:51 PMWhat is the difference between looking and selecting a card and a search? Is it just the contents are made known to you by looking first? I'm just curious since that what searching in essence does.This is a good question, and one that we've discussed among ourselves as well. There is indeed a difference in how the rules are worded now, because a "Look" or "Reveal" ability specifies targets that are in a particular location in deck, and then you act upon those cards. You are not viewing the deck and then acting upon a target; you already have cards revealed (either to one or all players) from the deck and are acting on those cards. It really is a scope of the available targeting that differentiates a Look/Reveal from a Search.
But certainly if music leader triggers off any search than Praetorium grants CTR cards CBN agaisnt N.T heroes.
Quote from: The Schaefer on May 18, 2016, 07:31:51 PMWhat is the difference between looking and selecting a card and a search? Is it just the contents are made known to you by looking first? I'm just curious since that what searching in essence does.It is because for look, you are targeting a specific location in the deck (top or bottom X). Then, as you say, you then target a specific location, since you have seen them. The difference is that search doesn't target the whole deck. Just the card you are looking for. And I don't believe look has a stipulation that makes it so whenever you look at a card that is unknown it is called a look, so search wouldn't count as a look.
It's because when you play a heal, you are target a card that is in a location that isn't known to you in the discard pile. If it were a look, it would mean that you know where it is. There really isn't a difference in terms of the actions you take nor the English used to describe it. It just has to do with the whole targeting system that redemption uses.
Can look affect an entire pile if that was it's specified location?
Possibly because Search is more restrictive and more descriptive than Look. Look + Select isn't really a thing - Look just gives you the information, it's another ability that manipulates the cards (add to hand or battle, underdeck, etc.). So you'd really be implying 2 abilities, which would confuse things even more.It doesn't really apply to heal, but implying Search is safer than Look + whatever because Search shuffles, Look doesn't. Don't want to Look and pull something from deck and leave it in the same state, I think.QuoteCan look affect an entire pile if that was it's specified location?John (Promo) looks at an entire draw pile, so yes. But he doesn't do anything else to it and returns it unshuffled.
Quote from: RedemptionAggie on May 19, 2016, 04:50:58 PMPossibly because Search is more restrictive and more descriptive than Look. Look + Select isn't really a thing - Look just gives you the information, it's another ability that manipulates the cards (add to hand or battle, underdeck, etc.). So you'd really be implying 2 abilities, which would confuse things even more.It doesn't really apply to heal, but implying Search is safer than Look + whatever because Search shuffles, Look doesn't. Don't want to Look and pull something from deck and leave it in the same state, I think.QuoteCan look affect an entire pile if that was it's specified location?John (Promo) looks at an entire draw pile, so yes. But he doesn't do anything else to it and returns it unshuffled.I was thinking about divination in my remarks. It only affects a couple cards but it does look and select. I agree that a look and select through the draw pile is too much. Heal seems weird in that it's a search. You don't shuffle the discard after a heal. So it works like a look and select but is functions like search minus shuffling? So for at least for decks look + select really can't apply but for discards? I'm probably just being overly critical of it all here. And should move my question to a different topic.
Why are cards implied searches vice an implied look to make a location known, and then some selection process to do something with the card selected.
QuoteWhy are cards implied searches vice an implied look to make a location known, and then some selection process to do something with the card selected.Because Look + "Select" is 2 implied abilities, Search is 1. At least that's my view.I don't have a problem with Heal being an implied Look. Besides Heal, there's a discussion on something like Sing and Praise (J) - is that a Search for all non-Heroes, or a Look and Remove all non-Heroes? That actually feels more like the recent Look abilities, since you're performing an action on multiple cards. You can Search for multiple cards, it just doesn't happen that often, I think.I definitely think Exchange should stay an implied Search, because implying Search to deck and Look to discard just seems even more complicated.
