Author Topic: Implied Search (Read 7799 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #75 on:** May 18, 2016, 07:32:42 PM »

I was just going of of this, and to my knowledge his ruling was never challenged or overruled. But certainly if music leader triggers off any search than Praetorium grants CTR cards CBN agaisnt N.T heroes. Honestly I'm trying to get things straight here, because their seems to be a difference of opionion. Regardless, I don't know how a heal ability can ever be a search ability though. Search abilities are very clearly defined in the REG and definitely do not involve any sort of restoration or bringing of things back to life.

Quote from: Gabe on March 16, 2016, 10:57:53 PM

Quote from: Browa on March 07, 2016, 03:56:40 AM
I actually disagree with the ruling. Heal includes an implicit search, just like exchange, but is not a "search ability" (neither is exchange). Music Leader specifies "draw or search ability" whereas Signet Ring simply restricts from "searching." A heal searches but is not a search ability so I would think that Signet Ring would restrict it but it would not trigger Music Leader.

You're correct that a heal does not trigger Music Leader because healing is not a search ability.

The point of my question was not specifically related to Music Leader, but to establish that healing a character in the discard pile requires an implied search.

Redoubter · « **Reply #76 on:** May 18, 2016, 08:36:46 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on May 18, 2016, 07:31:51 PM

What is the difference between looking and selecting a card and a search? Is it just the contents are made known to you by looking first? I'm just curious since that what searching in essence does.

This is a good question, and one that we've discussed among ourselves as well. There is indeed a difference in how the rules are worded now, because a "Look" or "Reveal" ability specifies targets that are in a particular location in deck, and then you act upon those cards. You are not viewing the deck and then acting upon a target; you already have cards revealed (either to one or all players) from the deck and are acting on those cards. It really is a scope of the available targeting that differentiates a Look/Reveal from a Search.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #77 on:** May 18, 2016, 10:00:45 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 18, 2016, 08:36:46 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on May 18, 2016, 07:31:51 PM
What is the difference between looking and selecting a card and a search? Is it just the contents are made known to you by looking first? I'm just curious since that what searching in essence does.

This is a good question, and one that we've discussed among ourselves as well. There is indeed a difference in how the rules are worded now, because a "Look" or "Reveal" ability specifies targets that are in a particular location in deck, and then you act upon those cards. You are not viewing the deck and then acting upon a target; you already have cards revealed (either to one or all players) from the deck and are acting on those cards. It really is a scope of the available targeting that differentiates a Look/Reveal from a Search.

I guess I'm just trying to figure out how to explain why heal is a search vice a look and select is part of it. I want to say it is cause the discard is not a known location or because the scope is the entire discard but I'm not sure. And in particular if the discard is ruled later to be viewed at any time and that makes it a known location does that change heal to no longer be a search. Just trying to follow the chain of logic to get to the ruling is all.

kram1138 · « **Reply #78 on:** May 18, 2016, 11:59:25 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on May 18, 2016, 07:31:51 PM

What is the difference between looking and selecting a card and a search? Is it just the contents are made known to you by looking first? I'm just curious since that what searching in essence does.

It is because for look, you are targeting a specific location in the deck (top or bottom X). Then, as you say, you then target a specific location, since you have seen them. The difference is that search doesn't target the whole deck. Just the card you are looking for. And I don't believe look has a stipulation that makes it so whenever you look at a card that is unknown it is called a look, so search wouldn't count as a look.

browarod · « **Reply #79 on:** May 19, 2016, 12:02:37 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on May 18, 2016, 07:32:42 PM

But certainly if music leader triggers off any search than Praetorium grants CTR cards CBN agaisnt N.T heroes.

Since this hasn't specifically been replied to yet I want to draw attention to it. If we're ruling that things can trigger or restrict based on implied/additional-but-not-stated abilities, then it should be discussed/clarified about how other abilities react in the same situation. Example being Hobbit's one above, are any abilities that include an implied or additional withdraw then made CBN by Praetorium? Because if not then there's an inconsistency in how implied/additional abilities are being treated.

Either way, this is another example of how implied/additional abilities just end up making things more confusing. Are we really wanting people to have to have a copy of the REG with them at every game so they can figure out if Ability A includes or has an additional Ability B in Situation X to know whether Card 1 negates or restricts or gives CBN to Ability A because of Ability B?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #80 on:** May 19, 2016, 12:25:30 AM »

Quote from: kram1138 on May 18, 2016, 11:59:25 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on May 18, 2016, 07:31:51 PM
What is the difference between looking and selecting a card and a search? Is it just the contents are made known to you by looking first? I'm just curious since that what searching in essence does.

It is because for look, you are targeting a specific location in the deck (top or bottom X). Then, as you say, you then target a specific location, since you have seen them. The difference is that search doesn't target the whole deck. Just the card you are looking for. And I don't believe look has a stipulation that makes it so whenever you look at a card that is unknown it is called a look, so search wouldn't count as a look.

I got all that but was asking specifically about look with a select. And look affects more than just the deck. That's why I am being ambiguous. Deck, hand, artifact pile. Idk about discard. Yes look targets a location, part of deck, hand, artifact pile. But in essence a look with a select functions like a search. Search is limited to do, discard, artifact pile, but I'm just tryi mg to figure out the extent when something stops being a look and select vice a search. If a card was worded look through deck and select a good card it functions the same as search deck for a good card but doesn't say search so would this be an implied search, a look, or is there a limitation that look has that would prevent this ability from occurring that I am just missing? When it comes to heal targeting discard I am just trying to figure out why it is ruled as an implied search vice a look and select effect. Just looking for clarity is all.

kram1138 · « **Reply #81 on:** May 19, 2016, 02:36:38 PM »

It's because when you play a heal, you are target a card that is in a location that isn't known to you in the discard pile. If it were a look, it would mean that you know where it is. There really isn't a difference in terms of the actions you take nor the English used to describe it. It just has to do with the whole targeting system that redemption uses.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #82 on:** May 19, 2016, 04:22:39 PM »

Quote from: kram1138 on May 19, 2016, 02:36:38 PM

It's because when you play a heal, you are target a card that is in a location that isn't known to you in the discard pile. If it were a look, it would mean that you know where it is. There really isn't a difference in terms of the actions you take nor the English used to describe it. It just has to do with the whole targeting system that redemption uses.

ok that at least answers part of my heal question. I'm still not sure why it was chosen to be one over the other if they are fundamentally the same? Im guessing game just based on how heal was worded in the reg? So I guess I'm just looking to find out the extent of look and select vice searching? Is it just semantics? And if so how does the process work for choosing semantics for an implied ability? Could something be an implied look and select vice a search? Can look affect an entire pile if that was it's specified location?

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #83 on:** May 19, 2016, 04:50:58 PM »

Possibly because Search is more restrictive and more descriptive than Look. Look + Select isn't really a thing - Look just gives you the information, it's another ability that manipulates the cards (add to hand or battle, underdeck, etc.). So you'd really be implying 2 abilities, which would confuse things even more.

It doesn't really apply to heal, but implying Search is safer than Look + whatever because Search shuffles, Look doesn't. Don't want to Look and pull something from deck and leave it in the same state, I think.

Quote

Can look affect an entire pile if that was it's specified location?

John (Promo) looks at an entire draw pile, so yes. But he doesn't do anything else to it and returns it unshuffled.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #84 on:** May 19, 2016, 05:13:21 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on May 19, 2016, 04:50:58 PM

Possibly because Search is more restrictive and more descriptive than Look. Look + Select isn't really a thing - Look just gives you the information, it's another ability that manipulates the cards (add to hand or battle, underdeck, etc.). So you'd really be implying 2 abilities, which would confuse things even more.

It doesn't really apply to heal, but implying Search is safer than Look + whatever because Search shuffles, Look doesn't. Don't want to Look and pull something from deck and leave it in the same state, I think.

Quote
Can look affect an entire pile if that was it's specified location?
John (Promo) looks at an entire draw pile, so yes. But he doesn't do anything else to it and returns it unshuffled.

I was thinking about divination in my remarks. It only affects a couple cards but it does look and select. I agree that a look and select through the draw pile is too much. Heal seems weird in that it's a search. You don't shuffle the discard after a heal. So it works like a look and select but is functions like search minus shuffling? So for at least for decks look + select really can't apply but for discards? I'm probably just being overly critical of it all here. And should move my question to a different topic.

browarod · « **Reply #85 on:** May 19, 2016, 09:59:09 PM »

I think I'm with Schaefer on this one. Heal feels more like it could/should be an implied Look than an implied Search. It would solve the issue of triggering/restricting via ML/HSR and would allow Heal to function the way everyone though it did before (insomuch as the recent discoveries regarding the implied Search stuff wouldn't apply anymore).

kram1138 · « **Reply #86 on:** May 19, 2016, 10:06:04 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on May 19, 2016, 05:13:21 PM

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on May 19, 2016, 04:50:58 PM
Possibly because Search is more restrictive and more descriptive than Look. Look + Select isn't really a thing - Look just gives you the information, it's another ability that manipulates the cards (add to hand or battle, underdeck, etc.). So you'd really be implying 2 abilities, which would confuse things even more.

It doesn't really apply to heal, but implying Search is safer than Look + whatever because Search shuffles, Look doesn't. Don't want to Look and pull something from deck and leave it in the same state, I think.

Quote
Can look affect an entire pile if that was it's specified location?
John (Promo) looks at an entire draw pile, so yes. But he doesn't do anything else to it and returns it unshuffled.
I was thinking about divination in my remarks. It only affects a couple cards but it does look and select. I agree that a look and select through the draw pile is too much. Heal seems weird in that it's a search. You don't shuffle the discard after a heal. So it works like a look and select but is functions like search minus shuffling? So for at least for decks look + select really can't apply but for discards? I'm probably just being overly critical of it all here. And should move my question to a different topic.

As was said, look + select isn't a thing. Divination is a look + add to hand. Select isn't an ability, it's just referring to the fact that you can choose which card to target with the add to hand ability. So you look at the cards, making them known, then you can add one to hand.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #87 on:** May 20, 2016, 12:19:40 AM »

I get that the look select thing isn't a "thing". But there are many abilities that have a selection procrss which is what im referring to. Just selecting a card does nothing. For any add to hand ability you have to look, find a card to fit the criteria (select), and add it to hand. There are card still that look and do other things so I don't think add to hand is where I'm going with my question. Look often applies to the hand (which can't be a search under current definition since search has to be deck, discard, artifact pile) and takes, discards, underdecks, etc. All of these have a selection process so that's why I worded it as a look and select mostly. Since my inquiry is primarily about look I'm being as vague as possible. Why are cards implied searches vice an implied look to make a location known, and then some selection process to do something with the card selected. Is it just the shuffling element that makes a card a search vice a look with some selection process to do something with the selected card? Or is it something else. Sorry for being difficult. Just the implications of heal being implied to be a search just doesn't quite set completely with this in my mind. I just want to have that distinguishable this is why it's this and not this information. That's all. Again sorry for being difficult. Thanks for everyone putting up with my incoherentness.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #88 on:** May 20, 2016, 12:51:54 AM »

Quote

Why are cards implied searches vice an implied look to make a location known, and then some selection process to do something with the card selected.

Because Look + "Select" is 2 implied abilities, Search is 1. At least that's my view.

I don't have a problem with Heal being an implied Look. Besides Heal, there's a discussion on something like Sing and Praise (J) - is that a Search for all non-Heroes, or a Look and Remove all non-Heroes? That actually feels more like the recent Look abilities, since you're performing an action on multiple cards. You can Search for multiple cards, it just doesn't happen that often, I think.

I definitely think Exchange should stay an implied Search, because implying Search to deck and Look to discard just seems even more complicated.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #89 on:** May 20, 2016, 01:02:04 AM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on May 20, 2016, 12:51:54 AM

Quote
Why are cards implied searches vice an implied look to make a location known, and then some selection process to do something with the card selected.

Because Look + "Select" is 2 implied abilities, Search is 1. At least that's my view.

I don't have a problem with Heal being an implied Look. Besides Heal, there's a discussion on something like Sing and Praise (J) - is that a Search for all non-Heroes, or a Look and Remove all non-Heroes? That actually feels more like the recent Look abilities, since you're performing an action on multiple cards. You can Search for multiple cards, it just doesn't happen that often, I think.

I definitely think Exchange should stay an implied Search, because implying Search to deck and Look to discard just seems even more complicated.

search itself has a selection element though as well so I'm not sure how that helps me. :/ I guess I feel if it doesn't shuffle it shouldn't be searching? Just feels like a look ability to me. But exchange gets weird under my logic cause if it's targeting the deck it searches but if it targets the discard it would be looking. I'll lay off with it though. Hopefully I'll gain some concrete clarity as to the distinct differences in time.

Edit. I guess I should have been wording it look to do something with what you looked for w/o shuffling vice look select.

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Author Topic: Implied Search (Read 7799 times)

TheHobbit13

Re: Implied Search

Redoubter

Re: Implied Search

The Schaefer

Re: Implied Search

kram1138

Re: Implied Search

browarod

Re: Implied Search

The Schaefer

Re: Implied Search

kram1138

Re: Implied Search

The Schaefer

Re: Implied Search

RedemptionAggie

Re: Implied Search

The Schaefer

Re: Implied Search

browarod

Re: Implied Search

kram1138

Re: Implied Search

The Schaefer

Re: Implied Search

RedemptionAggie

Re: Implied Search

The Schaefer

Re: Implied Search