Author Topic: MC and RC (Read 7566 times)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #25 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:05:52 PM »

Quote from: sk on December 04, 2009, 06:39:28 PM

I don't recall seeing any argument for the other side that isn't just 'how I think it should be' (with the possible exception of Prof Underwood, though his post on this thread makes it sound like he was willing to accept the ruling).

I continue to view MC being used by an EC magician to be most similar to an EE used by an EC. Therefore, I do in theory support Brow's position. However, as you mentioned, the majority of official voices were on the other side, and the most important 3 (Rob, Mike, and Bryon) were all silent. This isn't an issue that I feel strongly enough about to push it farther, so I accepted their ruling.

Sean · « **Reply #26 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:07:25 PM »

The capture isn't being used by the EC. Magic Charms is using the EC.

browarod · « **Reply #27 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:16:15 PM »

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 11:07:25 PM

The capture isn't being used by the EC. Magic Charms is using the EC.

Yes, you've made your position very clear. Please kindly don't post anymore unless you have something new to add as what you keep repeating doesn't deal with the current question at hand.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #28 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:28:58 PM »

Quote from: browarod on December 04, 2009, 11:16:15 PM

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 11:07:25 PM
The capture isn't being used by the EC. Magic Charms is using the EC.
what you keep repeating doesn't deal with the current question at hand.

Actually, I think his mantra does relate well to the question at hand. Although I disagree with Sean's perspective, it is is a very clear way to express the opposite (and currently official) viewpoint.

crustpope · « **Reply #29 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:29:34 PM »

Quote from: browarod on December 04, 2009, 11:16:15 PM

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 11:07:25 PM
The capture isn't being used by the EC. Magic Charms is using the EC.
Yes, you've made your position very clear. Please kindly don't post anymore unless you have something new to add as what you keep repeating doesn't deal with the current question at hand.

I dont mean to sound rude, but why dont we just lock this thread? Over half a dozen people have told you that:

1. MC is an artifact
2. RC needs a human EC to capture a hero in order for it to work
3. MC uses the EC not the other way around

You have dismissed our explanation with little or no cause and insist on us trying to see it your way. We DO see it your way, we just see that your way is wrong. Unless you have some other approach, or reason why we should consider MC on a Magician a human EC capture ability, then please stop posting, insisting on a ruling going a different way when you have not given us a good reason to abandon the one that NUMEROUS people have sided on.

If you dont want us to keep harping on the same point, then prove to us why we are wrong instead of dismissing us, otherwise lock this thread because you clearly arent listening and dont want to hear what we have to say.

Bryon · « **Reply #30 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:33:43 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on December 04, 2009, 07:24:19 PM

Simeon requires a female genesis hero to be in play for his ability to work, but that doesn't make it the female genesis hero doing the discarding. Similarly, the artifact, although requiring a magician, does not make the magician do the capturing; the artifact captures, not the magician.

This is correct, and illustrates why the artifact, not the magician, is doing the capturing.

Enhancements used by characters are just that: used by characters. So, if Simon the Magician throws a Net at you, you were captured by a human evil character.

Enhancements are USED BY characters.
Artifacts may be activated ON characters, and may require certain characters be in play to use their effects, but the artifacts themselves give the effects.

If a human EC is made someday that says "You may discard one of your activite artifacts to capure a hero," then the human EC is doing the capturing. But in this case, since the capture ability is on the artifact itself, then the artifact is doing the capturing, and not the character.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #31 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:37:25 PM »

I figured that this would turn out this way. Again, not the way I hoped, but I still appreciate having a final answer. Thanks Bryon!

Sean · « **Reply #32 on:** December 04, 2009, 11:38:38 PM »

Quote

If you dont want us to keep harping on the same point, then prove to us why we are wrong instead of dismissing us, otherwise lock this thread because you clearly arent listening and dont want to hear what we have to say.

I was discussing this with through Hamachi and he's not really asking about the ruling anymore as much as he is wanting to know why the card was made to not work with Raiders' Camp.

Quote from: browarod on December 04, 2009, 11:16:15 PM

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 11:07:25 PM
The capture isn't being used by the EC. Magic Charms is using the EC.
Yes, you've made your position very clear. Please kindly don't post anymore unless you have something new to add as what you keep repeating doesn't deal with the current question at hand.

Prof said what I would say in response to this.

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #33 on:** December 05, 2009, 02:33:28 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on December 04, 2009, 06:22:23 PM

Quote from: sk on December 04, 2009, 06:01:33 PM
When posting a question, please use the search feature to see if it has been asked before.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17470.0

nobody uses the search function before asking a question.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA......Good Call

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #34 on:** December 05, 2009, 02:36:57 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on December 04, 2009, 07:44:00 PM

Artifacts can capture (see UW) if htey have the proper conditions met. Magic Charms is not doing anything with the magician except being activated on that magician. The magician is like a Table or a Chair that Magic Charms sits at/on. Magic Charms is doing the work, not the magician. The only card that is doing ANYTHING is Magic Charms (being discarded to capture a hero)

In short, there is really no way to make this a capture by a magician since the magician is doing nothing except being a placeholder for magic charms.

Which is why you can capture a hero without even blocking....correct?

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #35 on:** December 05, 2009, 02:47:20 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on December 04, 2009, 11:33:43 PM

If a human EC is made someday that says "You may discard one of your activite artifacts to capure a hero," then the human EC is doing the capturing. But in this case, since the capture ability is on the artifact itself, then the artifact is doing the capturing, and not the character.

Bryon,

This is an interesting idea. Do you think this might eventually come to fruition? I'm afraid Babylonians would load up on useless artifacts to capture all the heroes though huh?

browarod · « **Reply #36 on:** December 05, 2009, 10:47:24 AM »

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 11:38:38 PM

Quote
If you dont want us to keep harping on the same point, then prove to us why we are wrong instead of dismissing us, otherwise lock this thread because you clearly arent listening and dont want to hear what we have to say.
I was discussing this with through Hamachi and he's not really asking about the ruling anymore as much as he is wanting to know why the card was made to not work with Raiders' Camp.

Yep, that's exactly what my question was, thank you ^_^

However, based on Bryon's post, it seems like they just didn't want to make it work and that's why it doesn't, which is probably the only answer we'll ever get. At least it's settled

SirNobody · « **Reply #37 on:** December 05, 2009, 11:14:28 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Tracer Burnout on December 05, 2009, 02:47:20 AM

This is an interesting idea. Do you think this might eventually come to fruition? I'm afraid Babylonians would load up on useless artifacts to capture all the heroes though huh?

We already have Egyptian Warden who has a very similar ability, so it wouldn't shock me if we came out with this sort of ability.

Quote from: browarod on December 05, 2009, 10:47:24 AM

However, based on Bryon's post, it seems like they just didn't want to make it work and that's why it doesn't, which is probably the only answer we'll ever get. At least it's settled

We don't make rulings based on how we want cards to work, we make rulings based on what logically follows from the system of rules we already have in place (we used to make rulings based on how we wanted cards to work and it lead to an insanely chaotic set of rules that were regularly contradicting themselves). The system of rules we have in places says that artifacts are not used by characters.

In order for Magic Charms to work with Raiders' Camp we'd either have to change the old and fairly basic rule that characters don't use artifacts, or we'd have to make an exception for Magic Charms. We only change a rule or add an exception when we have a good reason to do so (since neither of those actions benefits the consistency or simplicity of the rules which is the goal of those of us who are putting the rules together) and "to allow combo X to work" never qualifies as a good reason.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

lightningninja · « **Reply #38 on:** December 05, 2009, 03:55:48 PM »

Quote from: browarod on December 05, 2009, 10:47:24 AM

Quote from: Sean on December 04, 2009, 11:38:38 PM
Quote
If you dont want us to keep harping on the same point, then prove to us why we are wrong instead of dismissing us, otherwise lock this thread because you clearly arent listening and dont want to hear what we have to say.
I was discussing this with through Hamachi and he's not really asking about the ruling anymore as much as he is wanting to know why the card was made to not work with Raiders' Camp.
Yep, that's exactly what my question was, thank you ^_^

However, based on Bryon's post, it seems like they just didn't want to make it work and that's why it doesn't, which is probably the only answer we'll ever get. At least it's settled

Have you read my posts, or Bryon's post (by the way in his third paragraph, second point I think he meant to say "Artifacts USE characters"

)? They clearly state that logically, and following the rules of Redemption, the human is not doing the capturing.

browarod · « **Reply #39 on:** December 05, 2009, 08:04:25 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on December 05, 2009, 03:55:48 PM

Have you read my posts, or Bryon's post (by the way in his third paragraph, second point I think he meant to say "Artifacts USE characters" )? They clearly state that logically, and following the rules of Redemption, the human is not doing the capturing.

Yep, I read them. But the point of special abilities is to do things the rules normally don't let you do, so I was wondering why MC wasn't treated that way

lightningninja · « **Reply #40 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:39:39 AM »

And I've clearly stated why. It's because nowhere in the rules, on the magician's ability or on the artifact's ability does it state anything about a human capturing. This should be treated the same as Unholy Writ.

browarod · « **Reply #41 on:** December 06, 2009, 11:29:29 AM »

Quote from: lightningninja on December 06, 2009, 12:39:39 AM

And I've clearly stated why. It's because nowhere in the rules, on the magician's ability or on the artifact's ability does it state anything about a human capturing. This should be treated the same as Unholy Writ.

And I've clearly stated that I know why it's currently treated that way. My question was about what could have been and why it wasn't, not what is.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #42 on:** December 06, 2009, 03:35:04 PM »

Quote from: browarod on December 06, 2009, 11:29:29 AM

My question was about what could have been and why it wasn't, not what is.

Because Magic Charms is an ARTIFACT not a human EC...silly.

browarod · « **Reply #43 on:** December 06, 2009, 04:00:34 PM »

I'm gonna lock this now because people are just being silly

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Author Topic: MC and RC (Read 7566 times)

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