Author Topic: Mayhem with sin in the camp timing (Read 6603 times)

slugfencer · « **on:** October 09, 2009, 11:55:05 PM »

Ok, So opponent has sin in the camp x3 in my territory and I have no hand. I draw mayhem and 2 other cards. So I know I haveta place them at bottom o my deck, but can I play mayhem since it's a dom to basically draw 6?
How does the timing work on that?
Thanks!

Sin in the Camp
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place in a player’s territory. During that player’s upkeep phase, he must place a card from hand beneath draw pile. That player may reveal a good Dominant from hand and place it beneath draw pile to discard this card. • Errata: Place in a player's territory. During that player's Upkeep Phase, he must place a card from hand beneath draw pile. That player may reveal a good Dominant from hand and place it beneath draw pile to discard all copies of this card in his territory. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Joshua 7:11 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)

Mayhem
Type: Grim Reaper • Brigade: • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Each player must shuffle hand into deck to draw six. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Isaiah 59:7 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2009, 12:21:28 AM »

I think you can play Mayhem before you place 3 cards to the bottom.

Quote from: Rule Book

You and/or your opponent can play a dominant(s) (lamb or grim reaper icon) at any time during the game.

This means that you would be allowed to play a dominant in your upkeep phase, and you get to choose the order or your actions in your upkeep phase. If you wanted, I think you could actually place 2 cards from hand to the bottom, play Mayhem, and place one more after that beings it is 3 separate abilities that each make you put one under.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2009, 12:45:03 AM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on October 10, 2009, 12:21:28 AM

I think you can play Mayhem before you place 3 cards to the bottom.

Quote from: Rule Book
You and/or your opponent can play a dominant(s) (lamb or grim reaper icon) at any time during the game.
This means that you would be allowed to play a dominant in your upkeep phase, and you get to choose the order or your actions in your upkeep phase. If you wanted, I think you could actually place 2 cards from hand to the bottom, play Mayhem, and place one more after that beings it is 3 separate abilities that each make you put one under.

This is partially true. You could play the mayhem during your draw phase after you have drawn. You cannot, however, wait till the upkeep phase to do so. When you hit your upkeep phase, the effect of sin in the camp triggers and targets that players hand to place the card beneath deck. This ability follows the same rules as discarding from hand, and to quote the REG:

Quote

Dominant cards may be played at any time (see Dominants Played During the Battle Phase in the rulebook [p. 28]), but abilities that take effect instantly must resolve first. For example, if your hand is targeted for discard (e.g. Primary Objective), Son of God may not be played until Primary Objectives special ability has resolved. By that time, the card is already discarded and cannot be played.

If you go to the upkeep phase without playing mayhem, then all three abilities of Sin in the Camp take effect at once, and you don't have the ability to play a dominant between them, as they are instant abilities that must be resolved before you can play anything.

SirNobody · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2009, 02:08:25 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: slugfencer on October 09, 2009, 11:55:05 PM

Ok, So opponent has sin in the camp x3 in my territory and I have no hand. I draw mayhem and 2 other cards. So I know I haveta place them at bottom o my deck, but can I play mayhem since it's a dom to basically draw 6?

I believe you cannot play Mayhem before placing cards under your deck. As soon as you finish drawing your three cards the draw phase ends and the upkeep phase begins which triggers the requirement that you place cards beneath your deck. There is no opportunity for you to play Mayhem.

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on October 10, 2009, 12:21:28 AM

Quote from: Rule Book
You and/or your opponent can play a dominant(s) (lamb or grim reaper icon) at any time during the game.

That probably isn't a very good part of the rulebook to quote seeing as we all know that it simply isn't true anymore.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

thestrongangel · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2009, 06:51:47 AM »

Quote

That probably isn't a very good part of the rulebook to quote seeing as we all know that it simply isn't true anymore.

If you look at the rules though, when determining what phases you can play a card in, there is no reference at any point to dominants, save in the dominants played during battle section. And unless specific rules apply for abilities, I don't see why you couldn't play the dominant during your draw phase.

At that point, its the difference between having no hand and having 3 cards in hand.

To quote the definition of Dominant from the REG:

Quote

Dominant

A lamb or grim reaper illustration located in the icon box identifies a dominant. A dominant can be played regardless of initiative or turn.

I just don't see why he couldn't play it during his draw phase, after he draws. Given, if his upkeep phase hits and he has not been able to play it, all three cards go to the bottom, no question.

sk · « **Reply #5 on:** October 10, 2009, 07:06:15 AM »

There was an idea presented at one point that the draw and upkeep phase are almost automatic. No truly 'human actions' can happen at this point, such as the playing of dominants; you simply draw three cards, draw phase immediately ends, upkeep begins, upkeep happens, the upkeep phase ends, then the prep phase begins. At this point, additional actions other than the main ones outlined for that phase in the rulebook can happen, such as dominants. If this was the case, there would be no chance to play dominants until the prep phase.

I don't remember if anyone with authority agreed with the thinking, so I'm not sure if it is an accurate description of the phases or not.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2009, 11:41:19 AM »

I don't see why you'd even have to play it in your draw phase. SitC says you have to put cards back during your upkeep phase. It doesn't say you have to do that before doing anything else. I don't see any reason you couldn't play Mayhem (during your upkeep) and then put three of the new cards back.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #7 on:** October 11, 2009, 11:09:05 PM »

it was always ruled that dominants could be played before mayhem was created during draw phase with sitc...well every game i ever played over three years of piloting the deck...

thestrongangel · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2009, 04:09:37 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 10, 2009, 11:41:19 AM

I don't see why you'd even have to play it in your draw phase. SitC says you have to put cards back during your upkeep phase. It doesn't say you have to do that before doing anything else. I don't see any reason you couldn't play Mayhem (during your upkeep) and then put three of the new cards back.

Sin in the Camp is a SA that targets your hand. When a special ability targets your hand, you are not allowed to play anything, including dominants, until the special ability is completed. Because the abilities all take place on top of each other and they trigger at your upkeep, you would have to play Mayhem beforehand, or else you would have 3 cards in hand, and 3 instances of the SitC ability to resolve.

CountFount · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:10:54 AM »

Quote from: thestrongangel on October 12, 2009, 04:09:37 AM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 10, 2009, 11:41:19 AM
I don't see why you'd even have to play it in your draw phase. SitC says you have to put cards back during your upkeep phase. It doesn't say you have to do that before doing anything else. I don't see any reason you couldn't play Mayhem (during your upkeep) and then put three of the new cards back.

Sin in the Camp is a SA that targets your hand. When a special ability targets your hand, you are not allowed to play anything, including dominants, until the special ability is completed. Because the abilities all take place on top of each other and they trigger at your upkeep, you would have to play Mayhem beforehand, or else you would have 3 cards in hand, and 3 instances of the SitC ability to resolve.

Do you have a rulebook reference or an REG reference for this conclusion in this scenerio?

Master KChief · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2009, 01:09:12 PM »

its a common understanding you cannot play other cards/abilities until one ability completes. around the hur period is where i think this started, as if you get hur'd you cannot play dominants out of hand until the hur ability completes.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2009, 06:15:12 PM »

Except that it doesn't target your hand at the start of the phase per se, all it says is that during your upkeep your have to do it.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2009, 06:53:20 PM »

I can't think of anything that happens during the upkeep phase except triggers (add a counter to a set aside, SitC, The Lord Fights for You, etc). Are there any abilities that take place during the upkeep that aren't triggered?

Smokey · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2009, 06:54:32 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 12, 2009, 06:53:20 PM

I can't think of anything that happens during the upkeep phase except triggers (add a counter to a set aside, SitC, The Lord Fights for You, etc). Are there any abilities that take place during the upkeep that aren't triggered?

Judge's Seat

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2009, 06:59:05 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on October 12, 2009, 06:54:32 PM

Judge's Seat

Judges Seat starts out "Each upkeep..." which sounds to me like it's trigger at the start of the upkeep phase.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2009, 07:01:27 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 12, 2009, 06:59:05 PM

Quote from: Smokey on October 12, 2009, 06:54:32 PM
Judge's Seat

Judges Seat starts out "Each upkeep..." which sounds to me like it's trigger at the start of the upkeep phase.

Huh? "Each" means that Judge's Seat activates every turn. I don't see how that tells us when it activates....

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:38:21 PM »

Something tells me that there should be a clarification ruling about when exactly Upkeep Phase abilities activate. Perhaps a play as for "Upkeep Phase" something like "At the beginning of the Upkeep Phase...."

That's how MtG fixed this problem during their last rules update, and YGO does it a similar way.

SirNobody · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:42:57 PM »

Hey,

I believe the draw phase and upkeep phase are like battle resolution. They are instantaneous and the only things that happen during them are things the rules specify (i.e. drawing three cards to begin your turn or surrendering a lost soul if the battle was a successful rescue attempt) or things that are triggered (i.e. Judge's Seat or Chariot of Fire).

Just like you cannot play dominants during battle resolution, you cannot play dominants during a draw or upkeep phase.

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 12, 2009, 06:53:20 PM

I can't think of anything that happens during the upkeep phase except triggers (add a counter to a set aside, SitC, The Lord Fights for You, etc). Are there any abilities that take place during the upkeep that aren't triggered?

I'm pretty sure that everything that happens during the upkeep phase is a trigger.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:47:49 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: browarod on October 12, 2009, 08:38:21 PM

Something tells me that there should be a clarification ruling about when exactly Upkeep Phase abilities activate. Perhaps a play as for "Upkeep Phase" something like "At the beginning of the Upkeep Phase...."

I'm not sure what an "upkeep phase ability" is.

Any ability that counts turns or does something "each turn" happens during the upkeep phase. If multiple things happen during an upkeep phase the player whose upkeep phase it is chooses the order.

Saying something happens at the beginning of the upkeep phase is kinda pointless because there's not really a middle or end of the upkeep phase, basically everything that happens on an upkeep phase happens at the beginning of the upkeep phase.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2009, 09:04:25 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 12, 2009, 08:47:49 PM

I'm not sure what an "upkeep phase ability" is.

By "Upkeep Phase ability" I meant "an ability that triggers or does something in the Upkeep Phase, or where something changes or counts during the Upkeep Phase." It doesn't really matter, though, based on your reasoning in your first post.

thestrongangel · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:37:53 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 12, 2009, 08:42:57 PM

Hey,

I believe the draw phase and upkeep phase are like battle resolution. They are instantaneous and the only things that happen during them are things the rules specify (i.e. drawing three cards to begin your turn or surrendering a lost soul if the battle was a successful rescue attempt) or things that are triggered (i.e. Judge's Seat or Chariot of Fire).

Just like you cannot play dominants during battle resolution, you cannot play dominants during a draw or upkeep phase.

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 12, 2009, 06:53:20 PM
I can't think of anything that happens during the upkeep phase except triggers (add a counter to a set aside, SitC, The Lord Fights for You, etc). Are there any abilities that take place during the upkeep that aren't triggered?

I'm pretty sure that everything that happens during the upkeep phase is a trigger.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I'm going to have to take the opposite side on this one Tim. According to rules, unless specifically prohibited by another ability or timing issue, you may play a dominant at any time.

There are automatic actions that happen during each phase, this is true, but the ambiguity of the rules allows that any time means any time. No matter what phase, unless an ability or other action is already being resolved, any dominant can be played. This would include mayhem. Since Sin in the Camp does not trigger till a player's upkeep phase, until the player enters his upkeep, it has not happened yet. And I don't see a concrete reason why a player would have to leave his draw phase if he had a dominant he wanted to play before going to upkeep and having SitC trigger.

I mean, theoretically, if my opponent sets aside his human heroes with pentecost, and the next turn draws 6 cards, and has 14 in hand I would be able to in his upkeep phase after the ability finishes and before his preperation phase begins play mayhem and bring his hand back to 6 cards, preventing him from laying down anything in his hand. So in this case, I think a better definition of any time needs to be had.

CountFount · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2009, 08:43:38 AM »

Quote

So in this case, I think a better definition of any time needs to be had.

Any time = Any time.

The scenerio that this thread started with is very important to keeping Type 2 a creative strategic game rather than turning Type 2 deck building into what Type 1 has become which is speed. Currently, there is very little game play after three sins in the camp get in your territory. The game turns into just one person enjoying the games basic attributes of participation. Currently, there is no chance that once 3 sins in the camp get played in your territory that you can come back and win. Lets try to keep some simple definitions in the game. Dominants can be played any time.

Any time = Any time.

If I were King of Redemption, I would change the play of Sin in the Camp to allow any cards that can be played into territory to be played (Characters, Artifacts, Dominants) and then Sin in the Camp would activate. But I am the old door mat for most of you and am bitter that I can't beat an Alstead or a Maly.
This message sponsered by the old fart society.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:59:50 AM »

In the rulebook (which I accessed through the REG), under Diagram of a Turn --> Overview, it states

Quote

The following phases are performed each turn, even if nothing is actively done on a particular phase. A response is allowed between every separate phase.

This seems to say that Mayhem (and other dominants) could be played between phases, which would allow it to be played after drawing and before Sin in the Camp targets the 3 cards. If this is not the case, then this statement is misleading, because that is how I would interpret it...

CountFount · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2009, 10:01:55 AM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on October 13, 2009, 09:59:50 AM

In the rulebook (which I accessed through the REG), under Diagram of a Turn --> Overview, it states
Quote
The following phases are performed each turn, even if nothing is actively done on a particular phase. A response is allowed between every separate phase.
This seems to say that Mayhem (and other dominants) could be played between phases, which would allow it to be played after drawing and before Sin in the Camp targets the 3 cards. If this is not the case, then this statement is misleading, because that is how I would interpret it...

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:48:48 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on October 13, 2009, 09:59:50 AM

In the rulebook (which I accessed through the REG), under Diagram of a Turn --> Overview, it states
Quote
The following phases are performed each turn, even if nothing is actively done on a particular phase. A response is allowed between every separate phase.
This seems to say that Mayhem (and other dominants) could be played between phases, which would allow it to be played after drawing and before Sin in the Camp targets the 3 cards. If this is not the case, then this statement is misleading, because that is how I would interpret it...

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Author Topic: Mayhem with sin in the camp timing (Read 6603 times)

slugfencer

Rawrlolsauce!

browarod

browarod