Author Topic: Matching Brigade or X (Read 1990 times)

RedemptionAggie · « **on:** April 23, 2017, 12:40:51 AM »

Does the alternative to a card of matching brigade also have to match brigade? Blue card for flood survivors, clay/white to use a martyr?

At Nationals I wanted to exchange a captured Angel for 2 flood survivors but was shot down. I don't have a problem with that ruling because it opens the door to using Lost Souls for Flood Survivors, but seems to mean you can't use Martyrs to save Angels - which may be intended, actually. But the matching brigade requirement doesn't clearly carry over, either.

Noah - You may exchange a card in hand or territory with a human of matching brigade (or 2 flood survivors) in deck or discard pile. May band to a flood survivor. Cannot be interrupted.
Heavenly Temple - If your Revelation Hero is banished, captured, converted, or underdecked by an opponent, you may discard 2 cards matching hero's brigade from hand or a martyr in territory instead.

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2017, 11:00:46 AM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 23, 2017, 12:40:51 AM

Does the alternative to a card of matching brigade also have to match brigade? Blue card for flood survivors, clay/white to use a martyr?

I believe the intention, and the way I've interpreted the cards in question, is that the second option does not require a card of matching brigade. The way I've played and play tested these cards is that any card can be exchanged for 2 flood survivors and that a martyr can be used to save an angel provided it's a Revelation Hero. I'm interested to hear from other elders if that's how they are treating these cards too.

That being said, I know it was never our intention that Noah can be used to remove Lost Souls (or captured characters) from play and I don't expect that we're going to allow that. It may mean that we need to errata Noah, or that we adjust the rules regarding Lost Soul targeting so that no card may target a Lost Soul unless it explicitly states that it can (ala Burial), similar to the rule change last year for discard abilities. That also needs further elder input but my take is that the rule change is the cleanest way to move forward because keeps the game state from becoming broken and allows for better card design in the future.

The Guardian · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2017, 12:52:00 PM »

My interpretation has been that the parenthesis "(or 2 Flood Survivors)" makes that phrase a substitution for "human," and the lack of parenthesis on Heavenly Temple means that the "matching brigade" clause does not apply to the martyr option.

Perhaps Noah should have been written "You may exchange a card in hand or territory with a human (or 2 flood survivors) of matching brigade in deck or discard pile. May band to a flood survivor. Cannot be interrupted."

If we treat them as working the same way, then the parenthesis mean nothing.

kariusvega · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2017, 01:41:04 PM »

I have never exchanged anything but a blue card for 2 flood survivors with Noah so yeah I totally agree with The Guardian. Also agree with Gabe that cards being treated as lost souls and lost souls should not be targetable by him for exchange

Master Q · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2017, 02:57:33 PM »

Well, like Gabe, I've always played Noah that you can exchange any card (excluding LS) for 2 flood survivors. I was under the impression that you could only target LS with abilities that explicitly state them as targets. I was thinking that was a recent new rule, but maybe that's one I made up from somewhere...

Quote from: The Guardian on April 23, 2017, 12:52:00 PM

My interpretation has been that the parenthesis "(or 2 Flood Survivors)" makes that phrase a substitution for "human," and the lack of parenthesis on Heavenly Temple means that the "matching brigade" clause does not apply to the martyr option.

It's just as easy to say that the parenthesis replaces the phrase "human of matching brigade". I don't see a reason why Noah should be limited to only exchanging blue cards for flood survivors when it would work just fine exchanging any card for flood survivors.

Xonathan · « **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2017, 03:11:29 PM »

Land of bondage is not territory right? Noah wouldn't be able to target anything there if that's the case. I've also exchange any type of card for two flood survivors regardless of brigade.

kariusvega · « **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2017, 03:19:12 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on April 23, 2017, 02:57:33 PM

Well, like Gabe, I've always played Noah that you can exchange any card (excluding LS) for 2 flood survivors. I was under the impression that you could only target LS with abilities that explicitly state them as targets. I was thinking that was a recent new rule, but maybe that's one I made up from somewhere...

Quote from: The Guardian on April 23, 2017, 12:52:00 PM
My interpretation has been that the parenthesis "(or 2 Flood Survivors)" makes that phrase a substitution for "human," and the lack of parenthesis on Heavenly Temple means that the "matching brigade" clause does not apply to the martyr option.

It's just as easy to say that the parenthesis replaces the phrase "human of matching brigade". I don't see a reason why Noah should be limited to only exchanging blue cards for flood survivors when it would work just fine exchanging any card for flood survivors.

Noah being able to exchange any card for 2 flood survivors makes him exponentially more powerful.

Xonathan · « **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2017, 03:51:06 PM »

Shouldn't Noah be powerful? Especially in an offense of only 5 characters.

kariusvega · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2017, 03:57:56 PM »

Sure, but it is a big difference

I am positive I could do way more with the offense exchanging any, and it is already a very powerful ability

Xonathan · « **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2017, 04:04:13 PM »

Well you exchange any only for two flood survivors and you only do that about two times a game. Noah's exchange can also be restrict by HSR and and be negated before.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2017, 04:15:15 PM »

Quote from: Xonathan on April 23, 2017, 03:11:29 PM

Land of bondage is not territory right? Noah wouldn't be able to target anything there if that's the case. I've also exchange any type of card for two flood survivors regardless of brigade.

REG, Glossary Entry for Land of Bondage:

Quote

A player’s Land of Bondage is located in that player’s territory, and it is where the Lost Souls (including captured characters that are considered Lost Souls) that the player controls remain.

Quote from: Master Q on April 23, 2017, 02:57:33 PM

Well, like Gabe, I've always played Noah that you can exchange any card (excluding LS) for 2 flood survivors. I was under the impression that you could only target LS with abilities that explicitly state them as targets. I was thinking that was a recent new rule, but maybe that's one I made up from somewhere...

That only applies to discard abilities, at the moment.

Quote

Perhaps Noah should have been written "You may exchange a card in hand or territory with a human (or 2 flood survivors) of matching brigade in deck or discard pile. May band to a flood survivor. Cannot be interrupted."

That definitely would have been clearer. My original interpretation was Master Q's - it replaced the whole thing, not just human.

Quote from: Xonathan on April 23, 2017, 04:04:13 PM

Well you exchange any only for two flood survivors and you only do that about two times a game. Noah's exchange can also be restrict by HSR and and be negated before.

Yeah, but exchanging to the discard pile could be a problem, since exchange to discard != discard.

The Guardian · « **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2017, 04:17:19 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on April 23, 2017, 02:57:33 PM

It's just as easy to say that the parenthesis replaces the phrase "human of matching brigade". I don't see a reason why Noah should be limited to only exchanging blue cards for flood survivors when it would work just fine exchanging any card for flood survivors.

If it was meant to replace the whole phrase then parenthesis would not have been used.

Xonathan · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2017, 04:30:44 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 23, 2017, 04:17:19 PM

Quote from: Master Q on April 23, 2017, 02:57:33 PM
It's just as easy to say that the parenthesis replaces the phrase "human of matching brigade". I don't see a reason why Noah should be limited to only exchanging blue cards for flood survivors when it would work just fine exchanging any card for flood survivors.

If it was meant to replace the whole phrase then parenthesis would not have been used.

I understand the intent now, but the parenthesis doesn't make sense regardless because of its placement in the sentence. Its seems as an Errata is needs to reflect the intent of this card.

Master Q · « **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2017, 05:21:15 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 23, 2017, 12:52:00 PM

Perhaps Noah should have been written "You may exchange a card in hand or territory with a human (or 2 flood survivors) of matching brigade in deck or discard pile. May band to a flood survivor. Cannot be interrupted."

If we treat them as working the same way, then the parenthesis mean nothing.

If Noah were written with the parenthesis after human, then the matching brigade requirement would carry over and there would be no misunderstanding or misinterpreting. As is now, it is not written that way, so the parenthesis effectively mean nothing.

Quote from: Xonathan on April 23, 2017, 04:30:44 PM

Its seems as an Errata is needs to reflect the intent of this card.

I don't think that errata should be issued to reflect the intent of a card, unless the card doesn't function properly. Otherwise, The Third Seal (wa) very well should have an errata to reflect its intent. But we all know that isn't the case.

Noah is far from broken as-is. Sure, he might be better than intended, but it's far from a problematic situation since he's exchanging any card in the game for a grand total of 2 of 4 possible Heroes he could otherwise grab.

Watchman · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2017, 10:49:56 PM »

I was playing a casual game tonight with a friend who used Noah to exchange Every Man's Sword in his territory and was on King Saul to get out Doeg. I thought that was a smart play. So Noah's exchange ability is pretty broad and isn't limited only to hero-type of cards. I've only used him to get CoW Moses out of deck or discard by exchanging a green hero or a green enh in my hand/territory. I like how he can also get out an EC and it kind of makes sense that he can do so because all evil characters post-flood came through him via his sons' offspring.

The Guardian · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2017, 10:55:12 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 23, 2017, 10:49:56 PM

I was playing a casual game tonight with a friend who used Noah to exchange Every Man's Sword in his territory and was on King Saul to get out Doeg. I thought that was a smart play. So Noah's exchange ability is pretty broad and isn't limited only to hero-type of cards. I've only used him to get CoW Moses out of deck or discard by exchanging a green hero or a green enh in my hand/territory. I like how he can also get out an EC and it kind of makes sense that he can do so because all evil characters post-flood came through him via his sons' offspring.

No one is questioning that part of the ability. The question is whether Noah can shuffle any card in territory to pull out 2 Flood Survivors regardless of that card's brigade or alignment.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2017, 11:12:19 PM »

Do we play Persistent Pestering as being able to discard two cards from play?

Other cards with similar language to consider:

Rezon Arises - Does the two replace any of the conditions?
Knocked to the Ground - Can the enhancements come from outside of battle?

My conclusion upon reviewing all cards with () language is that without exception they either exclude something, establish limits or modify the quantity of targeting. I playtested and played with Noah and only used Blue cards to exchange for Flood Survivors (And one time a gold one for his Sons in booster). I certainly would have played this at Nationals if I thought differently as Soul Control with Noah would be absolutely insane. It is my interpretation that (Or 2 Flood Survivors) only replaces the (A) as a modification of quantity.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2017, 12:18:00 AM »

I think you missed some cards, RDT.

Confusion of Mind - Negate all special abilities on opponents' Heroes. An opponent may discard two good Enhancements (or a good Dominant) from hand to discard this card. Cannot be negated.

"A good Dominant" changes the type of card, as well as quantity.

Doeg - First strike. If blocking and evil King Saul is in play, discard a Hero (or two Priests). Cannot be prevented by a good card.

Can Doeg discard evil Priests? Before this discussion, I'd have said yes, no doubt, but now I'm unsure.

Most of the modifying () just change a number, which is all they change. Going off Confusion of Mind, anything else can be changed as well, if specified, unless we're saying identifiers only modify the original criteria, not change it outright.

Red · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2017, 05:52:39 AM »

I've never exchanged anything but a blue card for two flood survivors. Also, if a correction is made to the rules in order to avoid a situation such as this, it needs to be making the change that lost souls can only be specifically targeted. If Land of Bondage was to become not in play or some similar analogue, it could have averse effects on the targeting of occupied sites with certain cards that discard and negate neutral cards being unable to target occupied sites.

Master Q · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2017, 09:23:39 PM »

Yeah, I was under the impression there were more examples like Confusion o' Mind that change type and number. There's where a lot of my confusion comes from.

I'm still thinking Noah would be fine if he could exchange any card (barring LS) for 2 flood survivors. Then, Noah should just have an errata that excludes LS as things he can swap, because yeah, that's too strong. It would be a slight buff from how most people have apparently played him, but would it not be more fun/give more flexibility to such a small theme?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #20 on:** April 29, 2017, 01:23:31 PM »

I've always understood Noah to be able to exchange any card with 2 flood survivors because of where the parenthetical clause is placed. Yes, it's unnecessary to have used parentheses when they're not called for, but even RoJ has some unnecessary language that was intentionally left in for abundant clarity.

"A human (or two flood survivors) of matching brigade" means what Guardian thinks Noah does, while "A human or matching brigade (or two flood survivors" means what Gabe thinks Noah does. If the exchange for flood survivors is meant to be from a blue card only, errata is required.

kariusvega · « **Reply #21 on:** April 29, 2017, 02:02:01 PM »

So right now the official ruling is that I can Noah Three Woes from my territory for 2 floods survivors

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #22 on:** April 29, 2017, 03:07:29 PM »

That's how the card's worded, yes.

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Author Topic: Matching Brigade or X (Read 1990 times)

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