Author Topic: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels  (Read 1385 times)

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« on: March 03, 2012, 03:37:26 AM »
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Let's say I make a rescue attempt and play a mass band, say Battle Cry. My understanding is that the characters enter the battle at the same time, but their abilities activate 1 at a time.

So I band in Ethiopian Treasurer and Angel Under the Oak, I choose to activate ET's ability first, can I play a silver enhancement? (Angel Under the Oak is the only silver character in battle) Then can I exchange Angel Under the Oak for a gold judge?

Battle Cry (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and band into battle as many Heroes from holder's territory as holder chooses.

Ethiopian Treasurer (Ap)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 5 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search own draw pile or discard pile for one Bible icon with no special abilities. Holder may play the next enhancement card. • Play As: Search your deck or discard pile for one Bible icon with no special abilities and return it in hand. Holder may play an enhancement.

The Angel Under the Oak (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may draw 2 and exchange this Hero with a gold Judge in your hand, deck, territory, or discard pile. Protect Gideon from opponents. Cannot be negated.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 11:48:11 AM »
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That's a good question. My understanding of the rule is that you're correct: the heroes enter battle at the same time, and then you choose the order their abilities activate in, which would mean that you could do that. Something about that doesn't sit right with me though, so I'd wait for other opinions.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 01:28:59 PM »
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There are two conflicting ideas here. The ruling on mass band has always been that they enter battle at the same time, but their SA's activate sequentially. However, the definition of having entered battle says that a character has not entered battle until his SA has activated. One of these rulings needs to be changed, and I vote for the change being made to mass banding.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 01:33:35 PM »
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There are two conflicting ideas here. The ruling on mass band has always been that they enter battle at the same time, but their SA's activate sequentially. However, the definition of having entered battle says that a character has not entered battle until his SA has activated. One of these rulings needs to be changed, and I vote for the change being made to mass banding.

I'd actually vote for the alternative. I'd prefer it if the rule was that, for mass banding scenarios like this one, the rule is that you have your pool of eligible characters that can be banded to, and you pick and choose them one at a time to join the battle and their SA activates, and then you move on to the next one.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 01:36:15 PM »
+2
That's what I was suggesting.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 01:39:48 PM »
+1
Oops, I misread your statement; my mistake.

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 02:11:06 AM »
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I still don't have a good answer to this. It not terribly much of a rush, but I do think it is something that I would like to get answered.

It really only affects a few things, but last I remember it was ruled that if you play a card like Babel  (Pa) and band in someone with Two Thousand Horses  (Ki) or a similar card and play one of the end the battles all the characters have entered battle. This would suggest I would be able to play a silver enhancement before I exchange the angel.

But Pol made a good point about cards "not being in battle until their ability completes"

The way I envision it working is the band brings all the characters into battle. All their abilities should activate at once, but that would be a gigantic mess so they activate sequentially. This would allow for the silver enhancement (at least in my mind anyway)

Any chance we can get something more official than Pol making a suggestion?
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 03:00:00 AM »
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There are two conflicting ideas here. The ruling on mass band has always been that they enter battle at the same time, but their SA's activate sequentially. However, the definition of having entered battle says that a character has not entered battle until his SA has activated. One of these rulings needs to be changed, and I vote for the change being made to mass banding.

I don't necessarily disagree here as I've heard it explained that way before, but how does the second principle jive with guys like Zimri and Otho? Do they discard themselves with their abilities? How can they use their abilities to discard all cards in battle if they aren't in battle until after their abilities complete?

AFAIK, characters are in battle whilst their ability completes, but no other ability/condition can trigger until after the ability completes. Is there any reason why that explanation isn't sufficient?
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 03:51:42 AM »
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Not that I know of, but there had to have been a reason for "characters have not entered battle until their SA's complete." Doing away with it because we don't remember the reason may have unintended consequences.

Either way I'm still a proponent of mass banders entering one at a time. That's easier to explain and simpler.
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Offline cookie monster

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 05:51:08 AM »
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Not that I know of, but there had to have been a reason for "characters have not entered battle until their SA's complete." Doing away with it because we don't remember the reason may have unintended consequences.

Either way I'm still a proponent of mass banders entering one at a time. That's easier to explain and simpler.

 +1 This would make more sense.
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Offline STAMP

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 11:52:50 AM »
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Keep in mind that a card that enters battle but is removed from battle before its SA is activated still gets to activate its SA if still in play.

Precedent: Spy with Warrior's Spear
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 02:48:32 PM »
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I actually think it's simpler to have them all enter battle at once, because it's one ability with multiple targets, AoCP doesn't discard one character at a time, but all at once, now targeting a character for a band and actually banding them in aren't exactly the same. But what about a character like Zimri? If he activates before all the characters enter battle do the rest of them enter (I would assume yes if they enter one at a time)

Can we target characters targeted for a band that are still in territory while waiting for the mass band to resolve? (such as playing Melchizedek's Blessing  (Pi) on a character that hasn't banded in yet to get it's effect).

To me Everyone Band in at once and their abilities activate one at a time makes the most sense (it's also how other card game handle similar situations such as yugioh when multiple monsters are summoned at once but their abilities form a special chain, and I think MtG is similar)
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Mass Bands and Exchanging Angels
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 04:02:13 PM »
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MTG functions the way I'm describing, more or less. Redemption isn't conducive to having a stack resolution, but I think in this particular case it would work.
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