Author Topic: Magicians Defined? (Read 3597 times)

JDS · « **on:** August 21, 2009, 04:52:30 AM »

There has been a lot of threads recently about who is a Magician, referencing characters from Moses to Megatron (okay, that one was me). Based on the new Magicians in TexP, I believe it is reasonable for “Magicians” to be defined as evil prophets and users of other demonic powers. That would be:

Astrologers
Ashpenaz*
Chaldeans
Damsel with Spirits of Divination
Elymas (Bar-Jesus) the Sorcerer
Enchanter
Jambres**
Jannes**
Manasseh***
Pharaoh’s Magicians
Prophets of Baal
Prophets of Samaria
Simon the Magician
The False Prophet
User of Curious Arts
Witch of Endor
Workers with Familiar Spirits
Wizards

***Manasseh - "He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking Him to anger." - II Kings 21:6, NASB

** Jambres & Jannes – historically Magicians, but only referenced once in the Bible: “Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.” – II Timothy 3:8, NASB

* Ashpenaz – historically a Chaldean, but only referenced once in the Bible: “Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, the chief of his officials, to bring in some of the sons of Israel, including some of the royal family and of the nobles, youths in whom was no defect, who were good-looking, showing intelligence in every branch of wisdom, endowed with understanding and discerning knowledge, and who had ability for serving in the king’s court; and he ordered him to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans.” - Daniel 1:3-4, NASB

The following characters are listed in the REG as Magicians, but maybe they shouldn't be:

The Magi - I don’t think any heroes should be considered Magicians or benefit from Magic Charms, because any of their “powers” came from God. Even if a character was involved with demonic powers in the past, I don’t think that should be reflected in the identifier of their hero representation.

egilkinc · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2009, 06:05:09 AM »

hey,
I'm thinking that magicians should be defined as either those who are called magicians or those who have practiced magic.
As such, I do not think that simply being an evil prophet or even practicing certain demonic practices would be magical. Is channeling or evil sacrifice being "Magical"? I don't think so.
I think I would narrow down this list - certainly The Magi and Ashpenaz would not be on there. Probably at least a handful of the other "Prophets" wouldn't make it.
Certainly Jambres, Janes and Simon would be on there.
I haven't researched the rest.
Thanx,
Gil

JDS · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2009, 06:35:32 AM »

I think your definition makes sense, but is too restrictive based on the TexP Magicians. They are alligned with the orange brigade, and if their magic is not demonic power, then what would it be.

Astrologers and Damsel with Spirit of Divination are not listed as magicians in the REG, yet their reprints are clearly identified as Magicians. They attempted to use "magic" (demonic power? the force? certainly not of God) to predict the future. Prophesy was their magic trick.

The Chaldeans practiced a form of Astrology and were listed with the other Babylonian fortune tellers ("then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof" - Daniel 4:7), so I think Chaldeans (including Asphenaz) are Magicians. I think the rituals of the Prophets of Baal in Samaria fit this mold as well. The False Prophet also clearly displayed demonic power ("wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them").

But the following are the evil prophets which shouldn't be considered magicians:

Balaam
False Prophets
High Priest Caiaphas
King Saul
Shemaiah

Some were used by God, some just made stuff up, but they didn't practice any magic rituals or display evil powers.

Gabe · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2009, 08:46:13 AM »

JDS, I like where you're going with this. You're very close, if not right on, with the definition that Redemption should use (is using) for magicians. I'm fairly certain that (at least some of) the playtesters already have a definition for magicians that was used when moving that "culture" into the pale green brigade. It may not be written down yet but your thoughts here (and what Prof Underwood posted on another thread) seem to be in line with that.

BTW, your pic and caption made me, lol.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2009, 09:07:28 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 21, 2009, 08:46:13 AM

(and what Prof Underwood posted on another thread)

Just to clarify what Gabe's talking about

Colin Michael · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2009, 10:17:03 AM »

Quote from: egilkinc on August 21, 2009, 06:05:09 AM

hey,
I'm thinking that magicians should be defined as either those who are called magicians or those who have practiced magic.
As such, I do not think that simply being an evil prophet or even practicing certain demonic practices would be magical. Is channeling or evil sacrifice being "Magical"? I don't think so.
I think I would narrow down this list - certainly The Magi and Ashpenaz would not be on there. Probably at least a handful of the other "Prophets" wouldn't make it.
Certainly Jambres, Janes and Simon would be on there.
I haven't researched the rest.
Thanx,
Gil

I agree. Under technical definitions, even communion and confessions are acts of "magic". Magic was a significant enough part of the ancient world's life that I think that we should, in this case, go strictly by those referenced as "magicians" in scriptures or reliable and traditionally sound secondary sources (apocrypha, commentaries, etc.)

TimMierz · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2009, 01:44:21 PM »

Considering we still haven't defined "musician," I wouldn't expect a definition for "magician" for another couple years.

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2009, 02:18:00 PM »

I agree that the Redemption definition of Magician should exclude Heroes from being Magicians unless it is a converted EC.
JDS raises some good points, but in that verse he referenced, it specifies magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, etc separately, so wouldn't that indicate that magicians were different from the other groups?

I think the reason Damsel got both the Prophet and Magician identifier was because of her soothsaying (fortune-telling) profession. That being said, I don't think all evil prophets should be considered magicians.

Isildur · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2009, 03:16:30 PM »

Quote

magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans

All these groups were indicated as Magicians as we can tell from TexP so Magicians is still a rather broad area.

Master KChief · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2009, 09:48:47 PM »

are egyptian wise men magicians? i believe the same hebrew word pertaining to that class (magicians, chaldeans, wise men, astrologers, etc.) is used all throughout the ot.

Genesis 41:8
And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.

edit: upon further research, pharoahs wise men should definately be classified as magicians, as preceded by the verse on the 'pharoahs magicians' card:

Exodus 7:11
Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

it describes those egyptians as performing secret arts to copy aaron and moses miracles.

Isildur · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2009, 10:12:09 PM »

Yeah Wise Men are Magicians

JDS · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2009, 02:34:17 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on August 21, 2009, 02:18:00 PM

JDS raises some good points, but in that verse he referenced, it specifies magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, etc separately, so wouldn't that indicate that magicians were different from the other groups?

I think the reason Damsel got both the Prophet and Magician identifier was because of her soothsaying (fortune-telling) profession. That being said, I don't think all evil prophets should be considered magicians.

People who practiced Astrology definitely are Magicians in Redemption, see: Astrologers (TeP) and the following:

Quote from: JDS on August 21, 2009, 06:35:32 AM

Astrologers and Damsel with Spirit of Divination are not listed as magicians in the REG, yet their reprints are clearly identified as Magicians. They attempted to use "magic" (demonic power? the force? certainly not of God) to predict the future. Prophesy was their magic trick.

The Chaldeans practiced a form of Astrology and were listed with the other Babylonian fortune tellers ("then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof" - Daniel 4:7), so I think Chaldeans (including Asphenaz) are Magicians. I think the rituals of the Prophets of Baal in Samaria fit this mold as well. The False Prophet also clearly displayed demonic power ("wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them").

But the following are the evil prophets which shouldn't be considered magicians:

Balaam
False Prophets
High Priest Caiaphas
King Saul
Shemaiah

Some were used by God, some just made stuff up, but they didn't practice any magic rituals or display evil powers.

frisian9 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2009, 11:57:29 AM »

Jannes
Jambres
Damsel with Spirit of Divination
Simon the Magician
Enchanter
Pharaoh's Magicians
Users of Curious Arts
Elymas (Bar-Jesus) the Sorcerer
Witch of Endor
Wizards
The Magi (if converted?)
Astrologers

This is the list I have. I tend to stick to conservative and easy-to-identify category descriptions. This means I don't include wise men. As somebody referenced, they are included in the same passage with egyptian wise men, but I argue that because they are mentioned separately that even Pharaoh saw them as categorically different.

I'm working toward a definition. I suggest it include evil characters that practice magic.

Mike

Bryon · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2009, 12:41:18 PM »

I would add Mannasseh and Workers with Familiar Spirits.

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Author Topic: Magicians Defined? (Read 3597 times)

JDS

Magicians Defined?

egilkinc

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JDS

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Gabe

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Prof Underwood

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TimMierz

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The Guardian

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Master KChief

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JDS

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