Author Topic: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not? (Read 1419 times)

browarod · « **on:** October 06, 2014, 10:28:29 AM »

Currently I believe they don't count towards that, but thinking about it I'm not really sure why not. You draw 3 in draw phase, and drawing a Lost Soul causes you to immediately draw a replacement card, but as far as I know that's still "drawing" so I don't know why it wouldn't count towards Wives' effect.

Quote from: 4th Edition Rulebook

If you draw a Lost Soul, instead of placing it in your hand, place it in your Land of Bondage and draw a replacement card.

Based on this quote, I could see it two ways:
1. Each replacement card is also "drawn" so they count towards Wives' effect.
2. The replacement card is drawn but the Lost Soul itself is not treated to be "drawn" because it goes to play instead of your hand.

The problem I see with #2 is that we have Lost Souls that use the "when drawn, do <something>" terminology so that would seem to indicate they are indeed considered "drawn" when picked up by a "draw" ability or game rule.

As such, I'd currently rule #1, that any replacement cards drawn for Lost Souls would count towards the 5 cards for Wives' effect, but I could see it going either way.

*instaposted by Redoubter*

@Redoubter - It's not letting me quote your post for some reason but I wanted to ask: How then does a "when drawn" ability trigger on a Lost Soul (such as the Revealer)?

Farmer_Maggot · « **Reply #1 on:** October 06, 2014, 10:45:25 AM »

Quote from: browarod on October 06, 2014, 10:28:29 AM

Currently I believe they don't count towards that, but thinking about it I'm not really sure why not. You draw 3 in draw phase, and drawing a Lost Soul causes you to immediately draw a replacement card, but as far as I know that's still "drawing" so I don't know why it wouldn't count towards Wives' effect.

Quote from: 4th Edition Rulebook
If you draw a Lost Soul, instead of placing it in your hand, place it in your Land of Bondage and draw a replacement card.

Based on this quote, I could see it two ways:
1. Each replacement card is also "drawn" so they count towards Wives' effect.
2. The replacement card is drawn but the Lost Soul itself is not treated to be "drawn" because it goes to play instead of your hand.

The problem I see with #2 is that we have Lost Souls that use the "when drawn, do <something>" terminology so that would seem to indicate they are indeed considered "drawn" when picked up by a "draw" ability or game rule.

As such, I'd currently rule #1, that any replacement cards drawn for Lost Souls would count towards the 5 cards for Wives' effect, but I could see it going either way.

*instaposted by Redoubter*

@Redoubter - It's not letting me quote your post for some reason but I wanted to ask: How then does a "when drawn" ability trigger on a Lost Soul (such as the Revealer)?

That's how we saw it as well. ...which makes Foreign Wives that more nasty. Some might even say, a little too overpowered.

FM

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** October 06, 2014, 01:34:23 PM »

I would agree with moving the thread out, but I'm just going to answer ALL the questions in one quote, which I realize now I should have done in the first place instead of just referring to the rule, since we have multiple sources. Sorry guys.

Quote from: The REG

When a Lost Soul is drawn it is placed in the owner's Land of Bondage and another card is drawn to replace the Lost Soul.
The Lost Soul does not count as one of the cards drawn.

Therefore:
1. It counts as drawn for abilities on the Lost Soul itself.
2. It DOES NOT count for abilities based on cards drawn.

browarod · « **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2014, 01:53:24 PM »

I find it entirely inconsistent (and downright confusing) that a card can both be considered drawn for one ability and not drawn for another ability. It doesn't make sense logically and it seems like the single most terrible way to rectify the disparity, imo.

EDIT: Split the thread per requests.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** October 06, 2014, 02:00:01 PM »

This just doesn't need a discussion, honestly. Of the many rules that may not make sense, this one just doesn't strike that chord with me. I've never heard anyone complain about it either.

We have a unique mechanic in Redemption that involves replacing these cards when drawn. When I draw X cards, in Redemption that means I end up drawing X non-LS cards after replacing. That's always been the rule and it is consistent, and needed based on the mechanic of Lost Souls in the deck.

The card is still drawn before being replaced. Rain Becomes Dust happens before the replacement and uses the Instead ability to stop the replacement from happening at all, and the Lost Souls have their ability activate based on being drawn.

However, for determining number of cards drawn by a player or ability, the Soul itself is not actually counted, since it was replaced. That is just the rule, which I pointed to, and it has never been an issue that I know of.

There is no inconsistency, and frankly there isn't a better system. This has always worked and is not broken currently either. I'm not sure what the issue is.

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** October 06, 2014, 02:07:07 PM »

The inconsistency is that 2 cards looking at "when a card is drawn" apparently see Lost Souls differently, and I don't think that should be the case. If Wives doesn't see the Lost Soul as being drawn, neither should the Soul itself. If the Soul sees itself as being drawn then so should other cards checking the same condition. There is no logical reason why the same condition should be met differently for different cards.

Quote from: Redoubter on October 06, 2014, 02:00:01 PM

Rain Becomes Dust happens before the replacement and uses the Instead ability to stop the replacement from happening at all, and the Lost Souls have their ability activate based on being drawn.

Are you implying that Souls revealed by RBD trigger their "when drawn" abilities? I hope I've misinterpreted you because that is completely untrue.

Redoubter · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2014, 02:17:41 PM »

Quote from: browarod on October 06, 2014, 02:07:07 PM

The inconsistency is that 2 cards looking at "when a card is drawn" apparently see Lost Souls differently, and I don't think that should be the case.

There isn't an inconsistency when you look at the actual rule as noted in the REG. It just says that the card that is replaced (the Lost Soul) "does not count as one of the cards drawn." So it does not count for things like Abomb or the X on Foreign Wives. It was still drawn, it just doesn't trigger those other abilities. You think someone should get 10 cards discarded from their territory if Abomb is out and they happen to draw all their souls at once? That's why this rule is in place, among other things. It just makes sense with this unique mechanic.

It is still drawn, and thus triggers itself, but it doesn't count as an 'extra card drawn' for those other abilities. It is replaced, so that just would not make sense (and would actually be inconsistent).

Quote from: browarod on October 06, 2014, 02:07:07 PM

RAre you implying that Souls revealed by RBD trigger their "when drawn" abilities? I hope I've misinterpreted you because that is completely untrue.

Not what I said, I was referring to those as different events, though I see what you are saying. I'll clarify.

RBD is an instead. So 'instead' of the Soul being drawn (which would also trigger a replacement), the reveal happens. I was pointing out that there is consistency in how we work with drawing souls and other abilities still, since RBD can insert itself before the replacement card and work with the Lost Soul as a drawn card.

browarod · « **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2014, 02:36:02 PM »

"Doesn't count" seems like a cop out to me, I would feel more comfortable is there was more of an actual mechanic-oriented reasoning/definition to the rule.

I also missed until checking for myself that the REG quote you posted is under the "draw" definition, not the "Lost Soul" definition. I'm slightly happier that it's there (as a default for draw abilities) as that makes more sense about the draw ability just ignoring the Lost Soul than if that were a default of Lost Souls.

In the end, you are correct that this is the smoothest way to rule it. I'll just have to put my nit-picking aside, I suppose.

Master Q · « **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2014, 03:02:14 PM »

Quote from: browarod on October 06, 2014, 02:36:02 PM

In the end, you are correct that this is the smoothest way to rule it. I'll just have to put my nit-picking aside, I suppose.

Indeed. Why trouble the water when the reflection is clear?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2014, 03:49:51 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on October 06, 2014, 03:02:14 PM

Indeed. Why trouble the water when the reflection is clear?

Because it is really cool to see the Watcher try to eat Frodo.

I haven't read this whole thread, but the only reason that a Lost Soul says "when drawn" is to distinguish it from other ways that the Lost Soul could have been put into play. The SA on the LS only activates if it was drawn from the top of the owner's draw pile.

I agree with those that say the LSs that are drawn are not counted in the total number of cards drawn for SAs that count such things.

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Author Topic: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not? (Read 1419 times)

browarod

Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

Farmer_Maggot

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

Redoubter

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

browarod

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

Redoubter

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

browarod

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

Redoubter

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

browarod

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

Master Q

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?

YourMathTeacher

Re: Lost Soul Discussion - Drawn or Not?