Author Topic: Lay Down Your Life + Set Aside (Read 3469 times)

SomeKittens · « **on:** June 04, 2011, 02:18:03 PM »

Lay Down Your Life is placed on a Disciple in Boat. I RA with another Disciple. Opponent plays Martyr. Can I discard Lay Down Your Life to save the Disciple in battle?

Lay Down Your Life (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on your N.T. human Hero: If a N.T. human Hero is discarded (and this one is not), you may discard this card and bearer instead. • Identifiers: None • Verse: John 15:13 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
See also:
• Discard
• Place

Bryon · « **Reply #1 on:** June 04, 2011, 04:02:57 PM »

This is a question of whether placed enhancements continue to be active if the card they are placed on is set aside, right?

I would say they are, so this works.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2011, 04:54:01 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on June 04, 2011, 04:02:57 PM

This is a question of whether placed enhancements continue to be active if the card they are placed on is set aside, right?

I would say they are, so this works.

I agree because 1.) Boat has no protects against it. 2.) What Bryon said.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2011, 11:51:57 PM »

For clarity, you can not place a card on a disciple who is already in the boat, correct? The default for targetting is in play.

As far as whether a set-aside card should be able to affect cards in play, Chamber of Angels would be pretty useless if it could not target angels in play, so I agree with Bryon as well.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:01:22 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 04, 2011, 11:51:57 PM

As far as whether a set-aside card should be able to affect cards in play, Chamber of Angels would be pretty useless if it could not target angels in play, so I agree with Bryon as well.

So an Aaron wearing Priestly Breastplate set aside with Interceding for Battle would protect Holy of Holies from discard while negating both immunity and ignore abilities? Awesome.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:37:43 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 05, 2011, 09:01:22 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 04, 2011, 11:51:57 PM
As far as whether a set-aside card should be able to affect cards in play, Chamber of Angels would be pretty useless if it could not target angels in play, so I agree with Bryon as well.
So an Aaron wearing Priestly Breastplate set aside with Interceding for Battle would protect Holy of Holies from discard while negating both immunity and ignore abilities? Awesome.

Aaron only protects HoH while he remains in play. Apart from that small detail it's still awesome.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 05, 2011, 12:06:37 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 05, 2011, 09:37:43 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 05, 2011, 09:01:22 AM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 04, 2011, 11:51:57 PM
As far as whether a set-aside card should be able to affect cards in play, Chamber of Angels would be pretty useless if it could not target angels in play, so I agree with Bryon as well.
So an Aaron wearing Priestly Breastplate set aside with Interceding for Battle would protect Holy of Holies from discard while negating both immunity and ignore abilities? Awesome.

Aaron only protects HoH while he remains in play. Apart from that small detail it's still awesome.

So just so I have it straight...

Placed Enhancements? Yes.
Placed Artifacts? Yes

Character Abilities? No

Is this correct?

I also assume placed enhancements/artifacts only work if they were activated in play. Is this correct?

SirNobody · « **Reply #7 on:** June 05, 2011, 03:17:40 PM »

Hey,

Lay Down Your Life is active while in the set-aside area, but is the character it is on still a valid target? In range/out of range when targeting is obvious/clear enough for cards that have absolute target locations (in a territory, in battle, etc). But cards that have target locations relative to themselves (self, opponent in battle, etc) create some weird situations. If Israelite Archer leaves play before the end of battle, he doesn't get discarded because he's no longer a valid target for his own ability, right? If "bearer" of Lay Down Your Life is out of play then it's not a valid target for the discard ability either, right?

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 05, 2011, 12:06:37 PM

Placed Enhancements? Yes.
Placed Artifacts? Yes
Character Abilities? No

For character abilities it depends on the wording. Aaron specifies "while Aaron is in play" so when he's set aside he leaves play and the ability ends. Death & Hades on the other hand says "until this character is discarded" so when he's set aside the ability remains in effect.

A placed artifact only remains in effect for the current round unless (1) it is reactivated on the next round, or (2) it's ability specifies a longer duration.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Bryon · « **Reply #8 on:** June 05, 2011, 04:04:06 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 05, 2011, 03:17:40 PM

Lay Down Your Life is active while in the set-aside area, but is the character it is on still a valid target? In range/out of range when targeting is obvious/clear enough for cards that have absolute target locations (in a territory, in battle, etc). But cards that have target locations relative to themselves (self, opponent in battle, etc) create some weird situations. If Israelite Archer leaves play before the end of battle, he doesn't get discarded because he's no longer a valid target for his own ability, right? If "bearer" of Lay Down Your Life is out of play then it's not a valid target for the discard ability either, right?

In my opinion, the Bearer is the Bearer no matter where the bearer is. Just like a card in set aside can discard itself without having to specify "from set aside area." See Gates of Hell.

SirNobody · « **Reply #9 on:** June 05, 2011, 04:35:59 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Bryon on June 05, 2011, 04:04:06 PM

Just like a card in set aside can discard itself without having to specify "from set aside area." See Gates of Hell.

Does that mean that if Israelite Archer uses his ability and then is set-aside before the end of battle, he can still discard himself?
Does that mean that the Destroyer still removes itself (from the draw pile) if I use Grapes of Wrath in battle after using his ability?

For the record, I'd be happy if the answer was yes, I just didn't think that it was.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:09:51 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 05, 2011, 03:17:40 PM

A placed artifact only remains in effect for the current round unless (1) it is reactivated on the next round, or (2) it's ability specifies a longer duration.

In this thread, Gabe wrote...

Quote from: Gabe

As a general rule Artifacts are activated every turn during your prep phase. I've never seen anyone require another player to turn them all face down and then reactivate them, just leave it face up and use the ability again if it's an instant ability, or if it's ongoing it just keeps working.

Priestly Breastplate can work differently because it has a place ability. To use it's ability you must activate it on the Artifact pile because it's not an identifier. Once it's active, if you choose to use the place ability it stays on the priest until it's removed by a special ability. You cannot choose to deactivate it (unplace it). That's how all place cards work.

I am having difficulty reconciling these.

Gabe · « **Reply #11 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:37:26 PM »

Me too. Tim's statement is the first I've heard that there's an exception for Artifacts that are placed that causes them to be treated differently than all other types of placed cards.

Bryon · « **Reply #12 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:34:46 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 05, 2011, 04:35:59 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Bryon on June 05, 2011, 04:04:06 PM
Just like a card in set aside can discard itself without having to specify "from set aside area." See Gates of Hell.

Does that mean that if Israelite Archer uses his ability and then is set-aside before the end of battle, he can still discard himself?
Does that mean that the Destroyer still removes itself (from the draw pile) if I use Grapes of Wrath in battle after using his ability?

For the record, I'd be happy if the answer was yes, I just didn't think that it was.

If Gates of Hell can discard itself from a set aside area, then Israelite Archer should, too.

Destroyer removing itself from the game from inside your deck is a little odd. Does the "reset in deck" rule apply here?

SirNobody · « **Reply #13 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:44:47 PM »

Hey,

I did a poor job choosing my words in that statement, so it's a lot more confusing that it needed to be. All I was really saying was that while an active artifact that is placed somewhere remains active, placing it somewhere does not inherently extend the duration of it's activation beyond the normal 1 round.

So as far as Priestly Breastplate is concerned, it remains active for one round regardless of if it's placed on a priest or not. There is a slight question about how it gets reactivated if I placed it on a priest and wish to activate it again the next round.

All other artifacts return to the artifact pile when their activation ends. Either that rule that causes an artifact from Solomon's Temple to the artifact pile when it's deactivated needs to be expanded to include returning Priestly Breastplate to the artifact pile when it is deactivated, or we have to modify the game rule that activates an artifact to allow it to activate an artifact that isn't in the players hand or artifact pile.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #14 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:51:51 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Bryon on June 05, 2011, 09:34:46 PM

Destroyer removing itself from the game from inside your deck is a little odd. Does the "reset in deck" rule apply here?

I don't believe so. It isn't targeted for removal until the end of battle (before that the removal ability is just waiting to go off) so when it goes to the deck it hasn't yet been targeted, so reseting doesn't lose the fact that it was targeted, which is the only way I can see resetting applying to the situation.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** June 05, 2011, 11:27:39 PM »

Quote

So as far as Priestly Breastplate is concerned, it remains active for one round regardless of if it's placed on a priest or not. There is a slight question about how it gets reactivated if I placed it on a priest and wish to activate it again the next round.

I'd say it's more than a slight question, and more is in question than you are saying. For over a year now you've been repeating this mantra that no other elder will back you up on, and when they do respond it's contrary to what you're saying. Please get elder consensus on a major ruling before pretending it's already the rule.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #16 on:** June 06, 2011, 10:55:46 AM »

It's been well established that Artifacts have to reactivate each round (Otherwise I am Holy, I am Creator, and various other 'Upon Activation' artifacts don't work quite right) Priestly Breastplate needs to be activated normally in order to use the special ability of placing itself on a priest.

While no other Elder (before now) has straight up backed Tim on his statement in the same thread, I have seen numerous threads where Priestly Breastplate has been asked about and Elders have ruled that it eats up your activation for that turn.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:09:19 PM »

To activate the first time. That's not in dispute. What no elder other than Tim has been willing to say is that all artifacts deactivate and return to the Art pile before reactivation. In fact, Gabe has endorsed PBP being able to remain active on a Priest once activated.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:13:17 PM »

Source, I honestly don't recall that.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:48:39 PM »

The source is earlier in this very thread...

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #20 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:59:22 PM »

Ah, I'd misread what he said earlier - I still disagree that PB gets to sit around because its a place card, it's an artifact, which has to activate every round.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2011, 12:15:31 PM »

What stopping and errata that lets it works like magic charms?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #22 on:** June 07, 2011, 03:31:55 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on June 07, 2011, 12:15:31 PM

What stopping and errata that lets it works like magic charms?

Intent vs. What it actually says. Same ol' same ol'.

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2011, 03:38:03 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on June 07, 2011, 12:15:31 PM

What stopping and errata that lets it works like magic charms?

They don't errata just to make it work as intended (see: Split Altar).

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** June 07, 2011, 04:42:33 PM »

I think people should be fined every time they mention Split Altar in a thread that is not about Split Altar.

News:

Author Topic: Lay Down Your Life + Set Aside (Read 3469 times)

TheHobbit13

browarod