Author Topic: Lampstand protect LoR? (Read 6318 times)

STAMP · « **Reply #25 on:** February 16, 2012, 11:32:06 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 16, 2012, 10:53:07 AM

Sort of off-topic but not really. I know it's been the case for a while, but I can't find where in the REG that face-down cards are not "in play", but I can't find that anywhere in the REG.

Also, The REG definition for "not in battle" is:
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."

Is a face-down card "in" a territory still in that territory? If so, I don't see why Lampstand wouldn't protect a face-down Hero in a territory, or why Angry Mob wouldn't target an already face-down Hero.

Considering that LotS says "all" rather than "ALL", I would rule that LotS does not protect face-down cards.

lp670sv · « **Reply #26 on:** February 16, 2012, 11:34:16 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 16, 2012, 10:53:07 AM

Sort of off-topic but not really. I know it's been the case for a while, but I can't find where in the REG that face-down cards are not "in play", but I can't find that anywhere in the REG.

Also, The REG definition for "not in battle" is:
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."

Is a face-down card "in" a territory still in that territory? If so, I don't see why Lampstand wouldn't protect a face-down Hero in a territory, or why Angry Mob wouldn't target an already face-down Hero.

Face down cards are not considered "in play" and are therefore not part of the territory.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #27 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:38:09 PM »

I agree with Alec.

Praeceps · « **Reply #28 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:00:30 PM »

But as has been pointed out, LotS isn't restricted to "in play", it protects set aside areas as well. You're saying that on one hand it protects only the cards in play, but it also protects cards that are in set-aside areas and thus, not in play.

lp670sv · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:07:44 PM »

Quote from: REG

Also, The REG definition for "not in battle" is:
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that facedown cards aren't protected because they are not part of any of the areas listed above. They are not in territory, because all cards in territory must be in play, they aren't in set aside, and they aren't in LOR. Therefore facedown cards are not protected.

STAMP · « **Reply #30 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:14:21 PM »

What about face-down cards in set-aside?

megamanlan · « **Reply #31 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:15:32 PM »

So let me get this straight... Lampstand is even more OP then I thought? Causing FA to be useless?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #32 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:16:01 PM »

Lampstand has always stopped FA.

lp670sv · « **Reply #33 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:17:36 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 16, 2012, 01:14:21 PM

What about face-down cards in set-aside?

That does get a little confusing since set aside is already not in play, so face down cards in it are...not-not in play? So they are in play? Inception?

All kidding aside if there is even a card that does that I would say that since set aside is already not in play you can't exclude the face down cards in it for being "not in play" when they already weren't in play in the first place so they're protected to. Is there actually a card that puts cards facedown in set aside or are you just trying to give me a headache

(Mission accomplished by the way)

browarod · « **Reply #34 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:19:52 PM »

Ambush (Pa)
Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up.

You can probably just pull the "old wording" card for this, but this card seems to suggest that both territory and set aside (and battle, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) CAN include face-down cards.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #35 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:22:14 PM »

Quote

Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.

Face down cards aren't in play.

lp670sv · « **Reply #36 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:23:08 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 01:19:52 PM

Ambush (Pa)
Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up.

You can probably just pull the "old wording" card for this, but this card seems to suggest that both territory and set aside (and battle, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) CAN include face-down cards.

*mumble* Old Wording *mumble*

Praeceps · « **Reply #37 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:24:07 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 01:19:52 PM

Ambush (Pa)
Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up.

You can probably just pull the "old wording" card for this, but this card seems to suggest that both territory and set aside (and battle, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) CAN include face-down cards.

Then if face down cards are listed as being in territory, set aside, and battle, why aren't they protected again? You guys are using contradictory arguments to make your points.

"Lampstand protects anything face up on the table"
That includes set aside which is out of play?
"Yes"
Then why doesn't it protect your deck?
"It's not in Play"

STAMP · « **Reply #38 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:24:59 PM »

There have many a discussion on face-down cards. I can't remember all of the results. Makes me wonder about other scenarios, such as discarding The Darkness that has a face-down card in it. Normally cards follow the fortress, but can the face-down card be targeted? I just don't recall, and rules have changed a bunch so i don't know what I remember still applies.

browarod · « **Reply #39 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:25:22 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 16, 2012, 01:22:14 PM

Quote
Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.

Face down cards aren't in play.

So? Nowhere on Lampy does it specify "in play" is a restriction.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #40 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:26:28 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on February 16, 2012, 01:24:07 PM

"Lampstand protects anything face up on the table"
That includes set aside which is out of play?
"Yes"
Then why doesn't it protect your deck?
"It's not in Play"

That's not the argument at all. Lampstand protects set-aside because "not in battle" includes set-aside. It's that easy.

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 01:25:22 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 16, 2012, 01:22:14 PM
Quote
Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.

Face down cards aren't in play.
So? Nowhere on Lampy does it specify "in play" is a restriction.

No, but the specification is "in territory," and territory is within the field of play. That means that face down cards, which are not in play, cannot be in territory.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #41 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:26:37 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 16, 2012, 01:24:59 PM

There have many a discussion on face-down cards. I can't remember all of the results. Makes me wonder about other scenarios, such as discarding The Darkness that has a face-down card in it. Normally cards follow the fortress, but can the face-down card be targeted? I just don't recall, and rules have changed a bunch so i don't know what I remember still applies.

The face-down card is not being targeted by any card. It's discarded by game rule.

lp670sv · « **Reply #42 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:27:48 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 01:25:22 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 16, 2012, 01:22:14 PM
Quote
Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.

Face down cards aren't in play.
So? Nowhere on Lampy does it specify "in play" is a restriction.

The definition of not in battle does.

Quote from: Praeceps on February 16, 2012, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
Ambush (Pa)
Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up.

You can probably just pull the "old wording" card for this, but this card seems to suggest that both territory and set aside (and battle, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) CAN include face-down cards.

Then if face down cards are listed as being in territory, set aside, and battle, why aren't they protected again? You guys are using contradictory arguments to make your points.

"Lampstand protects anything face up on the table"
That includes set aside which is out of play?
"Yes"
Then why doesn't it protect your deck?
"It's not in Play"

Face down cards are not part of territory. Territory only includes cards that are in play, and face down cards are not in play. Your deck is facedown, unless you are cheating. Artifact piles are facedown, except for the active artifact which is protected. The only thing I'm not 100% sure on is face down cards in set aside, because set aside is out of play already so it already includes out of play cards.

Praeceps · « **Reply #43 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:32:31 PM »

There you guys go again. It protects Set-Aside because the definition of "not in battle" includes it. Set-Aside is inherently Out of Play. You can not say that Lampstand protects cards in play and out of play but only if they are in play. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #44 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:34:29 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on February 16, 2012, 01:32:31 PM

There you guys go again. It protects Set-Aside because the definition of "not in battle" includes it. Set-Aside is inherently Out of Play. You can not say that Lampstand protects cards in play and out of play but only if they are in play. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

So just because Lampstand targets one specific point that is out of play, it should target every point that's out of play? Lampstand specifically targets Set-Aside; it does NOT target face down cards, because face down cards are not in territory.

lp670sv · « **Reply #45 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:34:45 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on February 16, 2012, 01:32:31 PM

There you guys go again. It protects Set-Aside because the definition of "not in battle" includes it. Set-Aside is inherently Out of Play. You can not say that Lampstand protects cards in play and out of play but only if they are in play. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Not in battle is set aside, territory, and LOR. Cards in set aside are protected. Cards in territory are protected, but the definition of territory specifics that only cards that are in play can be in your territory, and facedown cards are not in play. So facedown cards are not in territory, they are not in set aside unless specificed, and they are not in LOR. They are simply out of play and not a part of the definition of Not in Battle, therefore not protected by Lampy. Got it?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #46 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:36:51 PM »

Lampy targets cards that aren't in battle. "Not in battle" is defined as "all cards face up on the table"

browarod · « **Reply #47 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:37:53 PM »

Ambush specifically says a face-down card returns to territory. Are you saying that it returns to the territory yet somehow is not in the territory?

Quote from: REG

"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."

Again, I don't see "in play", or even "face up" anywhere in this definition.

The distinction about face-downs in set aside is easily resolved if you allow that face-down cards in territory are just that: in territory. If they're not in your territory, where are they? Limbo? Every card on the table is in a specific zone. You can't just have cards hanging out nowhere.

"Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement."

Nope, still no "in play" or "face up" in this definition either.

lp670sv · « **Reply #48 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:39:22 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 01:37:53 PM

Ambush specifically says a face-down card returns to territory. Are you saying that it returns to the territory yet somehow is not in the territory?

Quote from: REG
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."
Again, I don't see "in play", or even "face up" anywhere in this definition.

The distinction about face-downs in set aside is easily resolved if you allow that face-down cards in territory are just that: in territory. If they're not in your territory, where are they? Limbo? Every card on the table is in a specific zone. You can't just have cards hanging out nowhere.

Face down cards in territory ARE NOT in territory because the definition of territory specifics that cards must be IN PLAY to be in territory, and face down cards ARE NOT in play.

Praeceps · « **Reply #49 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:40:02 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 01:37:53 PM

Ambush specifically says a face-down card returns to territory. Are you saying that it returns to the territory yet somehow is not in the territory?

Quote from: REG
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."
Again, I don't see "in play", or even "face up" anywhere in this definition.

The distinction about face-downs in set aside is easily resolved if you allow that face-down cards in territory are just that: in territory. If they're not in your territory, where are they? Limbo? Every card on the table is in a specific zone. You can't just have cards hanging out nowhere.

Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.
Nope, still no "in play" or "face up" in this definition either.

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Author Topic: Lampstand protect LoR? (Read 6318 times)

Chronic Apathy

browarod

Chronic Apathy

browarod

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

browarod