Like the subject says, does lampstand protect your LoR like Guardian?
Like the subject says, does lampstand protect your LoR like Guardian?
I don't think it should, but I'm not the one making the rules.
Like the subject says, does lampstand protect your LoR like Guardian?
I don't think it should, but I'm not the one making the rules.
"Not in Battle" is considered to be every card face up on the table aside from the discard pile. Cards in hand, deck, artifact piles, and discard piles don't count.
Like the subject says, does lampstand protect your LoR like Guardian?
I don't think it should, but I'm not the one making the rules.
"Not in Battle" is considered to be every card face up on the table aside from the discard pile. Cards in hand, deck, artifact piles, and discard piles don't count.
I know what it means, I just don't agree with it, I still think that it should default to play like every other ability, as in "[cards in play that are] not in battle", rather than "[cards in play or not that are not in deck, hand, discard pile or removed from game that are] not in battle".
Since the first one is already the default rule, why should it be different for the handful of cards that say "not in battle" as well
I agree with CS. If "not in battle" means what it says, then it should include face-down cards as well. Limiting it to face-up cards is not sufficient, since the top card of the discard pile is face up.
Face down cards are untargetable except by specification. That's always been a rule.
No, it's not. It doesn't specify face down cards. Ambushed characters cannot be Christian Martyr'd, for example.Face down cards are untargetable except by specification. That's always been a rule.
But "Not in Battle" is a specification!
The only real question this brings up for me is (and I know that I am going to be poisoned in .2 seconds for this) is why Lampy's specification is good enough to mean something but Split Altar's is not. Why does split altar default to in play when it specifically says all artifacts in the pile? (goodbye cruel world!)
Well thing is this. If the creators of the card had wanted it to be restricted to 'in play' they would have worded it as in play. Instead they worded it as 'not in battle,' indicating that it's supposed to protect more that just 'in play.'
Great Image would be insanely OP. This ruling was to make "not in battle" less arbitrary per card. Last year, Lampy protected hand, but Great Image couldn't target heroes in hand. This way, it's less of a headache for hosts, and the rules are better as a whole.
Great Image (Pr)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: All opponents' Heroes in playthat are not in the Field of Battle at end of this battle must be discarded. • Play As: Discard all opponents' Heroes in play that are not in the field of battle at the end of this battle. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Daniel 2:31 • Availability: Prophets booster packs (Rare)
Sort of off-topic but not really. I know it's been the case for a while, but I can't find where in the REG that face-down cards are not "in play", but I can't find that anywhere in the REG.
Also, The REG definition for "not in battle" is:
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."
Is a face-down card "in" a territory still in that territory? If so, I don't see why Lampstand wouldn't protect a face-down Hero in a territory, or why Angry Mob wouldn't target an already face-down Hero.
Sort of off-topic but not really. I know it's been the case for a while, but I can't find where in the REG that face-down cards are not "in play", but I can't find that anywhere in the REG.
Also, The REG definition for "not in battle" is:
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."
Is a face-down card "in" a territory still in that territory? If so, I don't see why Lampstand wouldn't protect a face-down Hero in a territory, or why Angry Mob wouldn't target an already face-down Hero.
Also, The REG definition for "not in battle" is:
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."
What about face-down cards in set-aside? ::)
Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.
Ambush (Pa)
Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up.
You can probably just pull the "old wording" card for this, but this card seems to suggest that both territory and set aside (and battle, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) CAN include face-down cards.
Ambush (Pa)
Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up.
You can probably just pull the "old wording" card for this, but this card seems to suggest that both territory and set aside (and battle, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) CAN include face-down cards.
So? Nowhere on Lampy does it specify "in play" is a restriction.QuoteTerritory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.
Face down cards aren't in play.
"Lampstand protects anything face up on the table"
That includes set aside which is out of play?
"Yes"
Then why doesn't it protect your deck?
"It's not in Play"
So? Nowhere on Lampy does it specify "in play" is a restriction.QuoteTerritory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.
Face down cards aren't in play.
There have many a discussion on face-down cards. I can't remember all of the results. Makes me wonder about other scenarios, such as discarding The Darkness that has a face-down card in it. Normally cards follow the fortress, but can the face-down card be targeted? I just don't recall, and rules have changed a bunch so i don't know what I remember still applies.The face-down card is not being targeted by any card. It's discarded by game rule.
The definition of not in battle does.So? Nowhere on Lampy does it specify "in play" is a restriction.QuoteTerritory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.
Face down cards aren't in play.
Face down cards are not part of territory. Territory only includes cards that are in play, and face down cards are not in play. Your deck is facedown, unless you are cheating. Artifact piles are facedown, except for the active artifact which is protected. The only thing I'm not 100% sure on is face down cards in set aside, because set aside is out of play already so it already includes out of play cards.Ambush (Pa)
Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up.
You can probably just pull the "old wording" card for this, but this card seems to suggest that both territory and set aside (and battle, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) CAN include face-down cards.
Then if face down cards are listed as being in territory, set aside, and battle, why aren't they protected again? You guys are using contradictory arguments to make your points.
"Lampstand protects anything face up on the table"
That includes set aside which is out of play?
"Yes"
Then why doesn't it protect your deck?
"It's not in Play"
There you guys go again. It protects Set-Aside because the definition of "not in battle" includes it. Set-Aside is inherently Out of Play. You can not say that Lampstand protects cards in play and out of play but only if they are in play. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
There you guys go again. It protects Set-Aside because the definition of "not in battle" includes it. Set-Aside is inherently Out of Play. You can not say that Lampstand protects cards in play and out of play but only if they are in play. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."Again, I don't see "in play", or even "face up" anywhere in this definition.
Ambush specifically says a face-down card returns to territory. Are you saying that it returns to the territory yet somehow is not in the territory?Quote from: REG"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."Again, I don't see "in play", or even "face up" anywhere in this definition.
The distinction about face-downs in set aside is easily resolved if you allow that face-down cards in territory are just that: in territory. If they're not in your territory, where are they? Limbo? Every card on the table is in a specific zone. You can't just have cards hanging out nowhere.
Ambush specifically says a face-down card returns to territory. Are you saying that it returns to the territory yet somehow is not in the territory?Quote from: REG"Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption."Again, I don't see "in play", or even "face up" anywhere in this definition.
The distinction about face-downs in set aside is easily resolved if you allow that face-down cards in territory are just that: in territory. If they're not in your territory, where are they? Limbo? Every card on the table is in a specific zone. You can't just have cards hanging out nowhere.Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.Nope, still no "in play" or "face up" in this definition either.
Consistency Given to Not In Battle
Not in battle is defined as cards face up on the table that are not in battle (this includes territory, set-aside area and Land of Redemption). It does not include hand, draw pile, discard pile, and cards face down in play. This changes the previous ruling that Lampstand of the Sanctuary stops Mayhem.
Ambush specifically says a face-down card returns to territory. Are you saying that it returns to the territory yet somehow is not in the territory?
Artifact Pile
An artifact pile contains a player’s grail icon cards. This pile is located in the player’s territory within the Field of Play. See Player’s Card Arrangement .