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Author Topic: Lahmi and his spear  (Read 8120 times)

Offline Sean

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2010, 07:43:44 PM »
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If a ruling works and has worked for the last ten years, that sounds like a good enough reason to keep using it to me.
The old ruling is wrong and on top of that "Because Doug said so" is a horrible way to make rulings.  The new REG should be updated to reflect what the game play should actually be, not what Doug thought it should be.  As far as I can tell the explanation I gave fits exactly into how it should work.  The idea of picking one comes out of thin air.

Rather than just saying, "Because that's how we've always done it," maybe you would actually give an answer to somebody that carries weight around here?
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The part I don't get is why we allow a choice in this case.  It seems like special abilities should trump name-on-name bonus.  Or maybe the other way around?  But why do we get to choose?  I know it is the way it has always been done (at least for the last 12 years), but now I wonder why one doesn't trump the other.  Anyone have any reasons?  Just tradition?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 07:48:19 PM by Sean »
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2010, 11:53:52 PM »
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If I had to pick, I'd say the special ability trumps everything.

Lahmi's Spear is 3/2 on the average gold EC.

Due to name-on-name bonus, it is worth 6/4 on Lahmi.

However, the special ability replaces the value it is normally worth (even the normal value under name-on-name bonus rules), and makes it worth 6/8 on a giant.

In Redemption, you can't choose to disregard the special ability on a card, right?
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Offline Sean

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2010, 12:11:35 AM »
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the special ability replaces the value it is normally worth (even the normal value under name-on-name bonus rules), and makes it worth 6/8 on a giant.
I see the logic here and wouldn't argue against it.

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In Redemption, you can't choose to disregard the special ability on a card, right?
I don't think so, unless it includes "may."
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2010, 12:15:27 AM »
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Now, Would one be allowed to switch from using the SA to using Name on Name if say, the battle became FBTN?
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2010, 12:25:12 AM »
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Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on January 14, 2010, 12:15:27 AM
Now, Would one be allowed to switch from using the SA to using Name on Name if say, the battle became FBTN?

According to the idea posted by Bryon and myself, as well as Sean's slightly different understanding, it would seem so (since the ability is not optional, nor is NoN in most T1 tournaments). According to the prevailing tradition, which leaves it as a choice, I'm not sure.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2010, 12:53:21 AM »
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I would say that it should work like this.

NoN is a game rule, and effectively changes the printed numbers to double when applied. However, in Redemption, Special Abilities can't just be arbitrarily disregarded. So if a 4/4 card becomes 8/8 on a certain Hero, but has the SA to be worth 10/6 when played on him, it's 10/6 unless the ability is Negated. If so, it goes back to "face value" at 8/8.
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2010, 01:00:11 AM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 14, 2010, 12:53:21 AM
I would say that it should work like this.

NoN is a game rule, and effectively changes the printed numbers to double when applied. However, in Redemption, Special Abilities can't just be arbitrarily disregarded. So if a 4/4 card becomes 8/8 on a certain Hero, but has the SA to be worth 10/6 when played on him, it's 10/6 unless the ability is Negated. If so, it goes back to "face value" at 8/8.
Perfect.  :)
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2010, 01:11:27 AM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 14, 2010, 12:53:21 AM
I would say that it should work like this.

NoN is a game rule, and effectively changes the printed numbers to double when applied. However, in Redemption, Special Abilities can't just be arbitrarily disregarded. So if a 4/4 card becomes 8/8 on a certain Hero, but has the SA to be worth 10/6 when played on him, it's 10/6 unless the ability is Negated. If so, it goes back to "face value" at 8/8.

I agree. If that's not the way it is, that's the way it should be. Let logic prevail!
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2010, 02:04:06 AM »
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How does this apply to cards like Betrayal (All abilities (*/*) on good enhancements are worth half.) or Strength in Weakness (Thorn in the Flesh is negated and prevented. All good enhancements of 1/1 or less are worth triple their face value until end of battle.)?  Does any modification of the printed numbers remove the NoN bonus?
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2010, 02:11:53 AM »
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Strength in Weakness states they are worth triple the face value.  That trumps name on name bonus.

Betrayal halves number abilities, which I suppose could halve the abilities before NoN bonus (or after, since the result is the same).  In other words, Betrayal does not say what the abilities ARE, only what operation is done to them.

SiW states a worth as an function of FACE VALUE, which means we do not apply NoN bonus.
Betrayal states worth as a function of (current) value, which means NoN bonus can apply.

Does that make sense?
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2010, 02:21:37 AM »
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Only if Betrayal is applied after NoN, since you'd be applying NoN to something other than face value if Betrayal was applied beforehand.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2010, 03:04:08 AM »
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On Betrayal, it doesn't matter. Either it's applied to the printed abilities (making a 2/2 a 1/1, ending up with a 2/2 when NoN kicks back in by game rule) or it's applied to the NoN-modified numbers (making a 4/4 a 2/2, the same result).
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Lahmi and his spear
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2010, 08:46:50 PM »
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The problem is not what Betrayal is applied to, but what NoN is applied to - it should only apply to face value, which it won't if Betrayal is applied first (otherwise, why doesn't it apply to the 6/8 for being a giant?).

In the case of conflicting changes to face value, which takes precedence - the one that was active first, or the one that was active last?  Does that have any bearing on the order NoN and a change to face value should be applied?
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