Author Topic: KTP3 and Grapes (Read 7006 times)

sepjazzwarrior · « **on:** June 09, 2010, 03:53:22 PM »

i block with KTP3 and play grapes on him, does it count as a sucessful block?

KTP3= If block is successful, holder may capture an O.T. human Hero in a territory.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #1 on:** June 09, 2010, 04:06:08 PM »

aslo, if you block with KTP3 and use SoG/NJ to rescue the only LS's availiable to rescue, does that count as a sucessful block?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** June 09, 2010, 04:31:03 PM »

1. Pretty sure yes.
2. Only if he wins the resulting battle challenge.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #3 on:** June 09, 2010, 06:03:11 PM »

I would have to agree yes because your opponent would not rescue the lost soul while he was blocking

and I would also have to agree that it is only if you succeed in the following battle challenge

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #4 on:** June 09, 2010, 06:28:09 PM »

but KTP3's ability says if block is sucessful, not if he wins the battle challenge. winning a battle challenge isn't the same thing as blocking sucessfully. winning the battle challenge doesn't ahve anything to do with his ability, i'm mostly just wondering if just the RA switching to a BC counts as a sucessful block or if since it is now a battle challenge his ability doesn't apply

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #5 on:** June 09, 2010, 07:21:53 PM »

So just to be clear, successfully blocking does not require the blocking character to be left alive, but defeating your opponent does, right?

lightningninja · « **Reply #6 on:** June 09, 2010, 07:49:58 PM »

I think so? These rulings get very confusing.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** June 09, 2010, 08:03:21 PM »

I'm going to be the D.A. and say "No!"

My rationale feeds off what some Elders have said about Grapes, that it does not start a new Battle Phase. Therefore, the original "block" is unresolved until after the second battle completes; only then will the blocking player know whether the original block was successful.

That was fun. Ask me another question, so I can come up with another creatively wrong answer.

lightningninja · « **Reply #8 on:** June 09, 2010, 08:22:53 PM »

OOh! OOh! I call next!

Korunks · « **Reply #9 on:** June 10, 2010, 09:40:38 AM »

I think the question that needs to be answered is what is considered a "successful" block?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #10 on:** June 10, 2010, 11:44:20 AM »

This is all I can find in the REG about this:

Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.

I know this question has been asked a lot before, and I would like to see the answer written down somewhere official for future reference.

So, here are some terms we need a clear definition/Differentiation on:

Rescue Attempt Fails:
Rescue Attempt is Successful:
Block Fails:
Block is Successful:
Hero is Defeated:
Evil Character is Defeated:

These may all sound simple, but I think there's a little bit of a difference between each one. If we can get these defined clearly and recorded somewhere, that'd help a lot.

SirNobody · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2010, 01:18:05 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 09, 2010, 03:53:22 PM

i block with KTP3 and play grapes on him, does it count as a sucessful block?

Yes. Mutual destruction by mutual removal constitutes a successful block.

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 09, 2010, 04:06:08 PM

if you block with KTP3 and use SoG/NJ to rescue the only LS's availiable to rescue, does that count as a sucessful block?

Assuming there are still no lost souls available when the battle ends, yes that counts as a successful block. There was a rescue attempt, it was unsuccessful, so there was a successful block. Ironically if the attacker is Joshua, and Joshua wins the ensuing battle challenge, you can have a successful block for the evil character and a successful battle challenge for the hero in the same battle. (Yay for strangeness)

Quote from: BubbleBoy on June 09, 2010, 07:21:53 PM

successfully blocking does not require the blocking character to be left alive, but defeating your opponent does, right?

Neither successfully blocking or defeating your opponent requires your character to survive.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2010, 01:21:49 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 10, 2010, 01:18:05 PM

Ironically if the attacker is Joshua, and Joshua wins the ensuing battle challenge, you can have a successful block for the evil character and a successful battle challenge for the hero in the same battle. (Yay for strangeness)

And this is why I want that complete list of those terms written out, so we know which ones apply when, or if several apply at the same time.

SirNobody · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2010, 01:32:55 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 10, 2010, 11:44:20 AM

So, here are some terms we need a clear definition/Differentiation on:

Rescue Attempt Fails:
Rescue Attempt is Successful:
Block Fails:
Block is Successful:
Hero is Defeated:
Evil Character is Defeated:

These may all sound simple, but I think there's a little bit of a difference between each one. If we can get these defined clearly and recorded somewhere, that'd help a lot.

I totally have the answer these questions! (I think)...

Quote

Battle Outcome:

Battle outcome has two dimensions: who wins and what kind of battle it is.

Determining the winner:

In every battle one side wins and one side loses. So if the attacker wins the defender loses, and if the defender wins the attacker loses. At battle resolution, the winner is determined as follows:

The attacker wins if any of the following are true:
- the battle is in the "hero winning" state
- the battle is in the "mutual destruction" state
- there are no evil characters in battle and a hero is in battle

The defender wins if any of the following are true:
- the battle is in the "evil character winning" state
- the battle is in the "stalemate" state
- there are no heroes in battle

Determining the kind of battle:

If there was at no point during battle a rescuable lost soul then there is a battle challenge but no rescue attempt. If there is a rescuable lost soul at the beginning of battle resolution then there is a rescue attempt but no battle challenge. If there was a rescuable lost soul at some point during battle but there is no rescueable lost soul at the beginning of battle resolution then there was a failed rescue attempt and a battle challenge.

If the Hero wins then the battle challenge (or rescue attempt if there was no battle challenge) is successful. If the Evil Character wins then the battle challenge (or rescue attempt if there was no battle challenge) fails.

Quote

Defeat: Defeat is caused when a character is discarded, removed from battle or loses in battle (is on the side that loses).

A successful block happens any time there is a failed rescue attempt or failed battle challenge.
A failed block (I don't think that term exists yet, but hypothetically speaking) happens any time there is a successful rescue attempt or successful battle challenge.

Does that adequately define your terms?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #14 on:** June 10, 2010, 01:48:44 PM »

I think you need to "tighten" up some of those typos, because they're rather loose.

So, lemme see if I 100% understand all of them, in my own words:

Rescue Attempt Fails: If the heroes are defeated, or no lost souls are rescued after the evil characters are defeated, or no Evil Characters block but no lost souls are left to rescue.

Rescue Attempt is Successful: The evil characters are defeated or no evil characters block, and a lost soul is redeemed.

Battle Challenge Fails: All heroes are defeated during a battle challenge.

Battle Challenge is Successful: All evil characters are defeated in a battle challenge, or no evil characters block.

Block Fails: All evil characters are defeated, and the rescue attempt or battle challenge is successful

This is a grey area too, if you turn a RA into a BC, is that a successful block?

Block is Successful: All heroes are defeated.

Also a grey area. Technically, if you use a character like Uzzah, isn't the block a failure because no evil characters were in battle, but the rescue attempt fails as well? This is one of the ones that really needs a clear definition, because suicide blocks seem to confuse a lot of people.

Hero is Defeated: Hero is either forced out of battle in some way (discard, capture, withdraw, etc...), or is on the side that loses during battle resolution.

Evil Character is Defeated: Evil character is either forced out of battle in some way (discard, capture, withdraw, etc...), or is on the side that loses during battle resolution.

Are these all correct?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #15 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:03:18 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on June 10, 2010, 01:32:55 PM

The attacker wins if any of the following are true:
- the battle is in the "mutual destruction" state

Does this mean that Deceit of Saphira now results in a "win" for the attacker?

Here are my initial thoughts on the terms you listed:

Rescue Attempt Fails: When a rescue attempt is made, and no LS is rescued
Rescue Attempt is Successful: When LS is rescued (not by SoG/NJ)
Block Fails: When a rescue attempt succeeds or a battle challenge that never was a rescue attempt succeeds
Block is Successful: When a rescue attempt fails or a battle challenge fails
Hero is Defeated: When hero loses a rescue attempt or battle challenge
Evil Character is Defeated: When a rescue attempt or battle challenge is successful against an evil character

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #16 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:08:36 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 10, 2010, 02:03:18 PM

Block is Successful: When a rescue attempt fails or a battle challenge fails

This is the one that always causes the most issues. As I said in my post, its very much a grey area. With your definition, if I could have both a successful and unsuccessful block in a single battle. Death of Unrighteous comes to mind. I turn the RA into a battle challenge, so technically the RA fails, but then I lose the proceeding Battle Challenge. So, did I successfully block or not?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #17 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:13:08 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 10, 2010, 02:08:36 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 10, 2010, 02:03:18 PM
Block is Successful: When a rescue attempt fails or a battle challenge fails
Death of Unrighteous comes to mind. I turn the RA into a battle challenge, so technically the RA fails, but then I lose the proceeding Battle Challenge. So, did I successfully block or not?

Was there a rescue attempt? Yes
Did it fail? Yes
Was the block successful by my definition? Yes

Was there a successful battle challenge? Yes
Was the EC defeated by my definition? Yes

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:23:46 PM »

When is Successful Block decided?

If its decided at the end of the battle phase, then you would have both successfully and unsuccessfully blocked.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:34:51 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 10, 2010, 02:23:46 PM

When is Successful Block decided?

If its decided at the end of the battle phase, then you would have both successfully and unsuccessfully blocked.

I don't see how this could be the case. There are really only 3 possibilities that I see:

1 - A rescue attempt that starts that way.
2 - A battle challenge that stays that way.
3 - A battle challenge that starts that way and at some point becomes a rescue attempt.

If #1 fails, then it is a successful block.
If #2 fails, then it is a successful block.
#3 was technically a rescue attempt at one point. If it fails because no LS is rescued by the end, then it was a successful block regardless of why. Maybe the available LSs disappeared again. Maybe the heroes all died. But for whatever reason it was a successful block.

How could you have a block be successful AND unsuccessful?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #20 on:** June 10, 2010, 02:50:10 PM »

Simple, You change the rescue attempt to a battle challenge (successful block) and then lose that battle challenge (unsuccessful block).

Both possibilities were met in the same battle.

Another question: What if my opponent uses Primary Objective, redeems a soul, and then my evil character defeats their hero? Did I successfully block or not?

If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent’s Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #21 on:** June 10, 2010, 03:29:01 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 10, 2010, 02:50:10 PM

Simple, You change the rescue attempt to a battle challenge (successful block) and then lose that battle challenge (unsuccessful block). Both possibilities were met in the same battle.

Did you read my definition for an unsuccessful block. It said that it was when a "battle challenge THAT WAS NEVER A RESCUE ATTEMPT succeeds. Therefore, the situation you came up with is NOT an unsuccessful block. It is ONLY a successful block. Does the emphasis help that to make more sense?

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 10, 2010, 02:50:10 PM

Another question: What if my opponent uses Primary Objective, redeems a soul, and then my evil character defeats their hero? Did I successfully block or not?

No, they rescued a LS, so that was an unsuccessful block.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #22 on:** June 10, 2010, 03:45:27 PM »

Ahhh, I missed that part. My mistake.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #23 on:** June 10, 2010, 03:46:56 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on June 10, 2010, 03:45:27 PM

Ahhh, I missed that part. My mistake.

No problem. I understand your confusion. It is a lot more complicated than simply "you won, I lost"

The Schaef · « **Reply #24 on:** June 10, 2010, 04:47:18 PM »

I'm not sure I've ever counted only the failure of the rescue as a successful block. I consider "successful block" to be a winning result. So denying a Lost Soul but still losing the battle should not IMO be a successful block.

"Block" in the rules is a singular term that encompasses presenting an Evil Character against a Hero, doesn't matter whether it's an RA or BC. Therefore, the outcome of the battle should be the deciding factor, not the state of the rescue attempt vs battle challenge. That only adds confusion to the matter, and there's enough of that just having a situation where a failed rescue and successful challenge can co-exist.

Additionally, every reference in the rulebook to the term "successful block" coincides with an outright win, and if a split-decision is considered a successful block, then both sides of a Type II battle would get XP credit. I don't play enough T2 to know but I'm guessing that's not how XP is normally distributed when a soul is Buried, for example.

News:

Author Topic: KTP3 and Grapes (Read 7006 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef