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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on November 13, 2008, 04:49:39 PM
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If you put the rab with 2kh in Kingdoms could 2kh be targeted by say coat of mail?
KOTW
Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Evil Characters here are protected from effect, and may be removed during holder’s preparation phase only. While an Evil Character is here, protect holder from being forced to block with another player’s character. • Identifiers: Holds up to three Evil Characters • Verse: Luke 4:6 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Uncommon)
Coat of Mail
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 0 / 5 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Holder may negate and discard one evil weapon class enhancement on an Evil Character. Any time during battle, holder may discard Coat of Mail to return bearer being discarded to your territory. • Play As: Holder may negate and discard one evil weapon class enhancement on an Evil Character in play. Any time during battle, holder may discard Coat of Mail to return bearer being discarded to your territory. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:38 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)
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Yes, because you are targeting the enhancement not the character
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+1
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I concur. The fortress only protects the character.
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I disagree by discarding the weapon you are successfully effecting the evil character.
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I disagree by discarding the weapon you are successfully effecting the evil character.
How? You can discard enhancements played on an immune character in battle. How is this different?
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I disagree by discarding the weapon you are successfully effecting the evil character.
In what way?
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I disagree by discarding the weapon you are successfully effecting the evil character.
In what way?
It effects the characters stats. If somone is holding a weapon and you confiscate the weapon that affects the characters moral, emotions and status in life, similarily if I discard a weapon from a charcter protected from effect it should be able to stay on the character. The Ec is holding the weapon for ralph's sake!
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First of all, it's just a sword, you totally need to re-examine your life if someone takes all that away from you.
Second of all, it doesn't affect the character's stats because the numbers don't count in territory.
So what are you doing to affect the character?
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First of all, it's just a sword, you totally need to re-examine your life if someone takes all that away from you.
Second of all, it doesn't affect the character's stats because the numbers don't count in territory.
So what are you doing to affect the character?
Weapon count in battle though, you are talking away the weapon he is holding which lowers his number in battle were it really counts.
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First of all, it's just a sword, you totally need to re-examine your life if someone takes all that away from you.
Second of all, it doesn't affect the character's stats because the numbers don't count in territory.
So what are you doing to affect the character?
Weapon count in battle though, you are talking away the weapon he is holding which lowers his number in battle were it really counts.
But numbers on weapons add nothing to the character Ex. my nergalsherazer(7/7) can hold swift horses (2/2) and still block Widow
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First of all, it's just a sword, you totally need to re-examine your life if someone takes all that away from you.
Second of all, it doesn't affect the character's stats because the numbers don't count in territory.
So what are you doing to affect the character?
Weapon count in battle though, you are talking away the weapon he is holding which lowers his number in battle were it really counts.
But numbers on weapons add nothing to the character Ex. my nergalsherazer(7/7) can hold swift horses (2/2) and still block Widow
yes they do, not in territory but in battle they do.
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no they don't
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no they don't
sure they do. A weapon on nergal sherazzer (2/2) makes him a 9/9 in battle. When he blocks he is a 7/7 but then the weapon is adding on, by discarding a weapon on a protected character you are effecting his chances of winning the battle. Here is another way to think about it: Logically if nergal is protected and his weapon on him, then it should protected two. I have found out from past arguments that redemption only accepts the logic it wants to. If I am protected from the enemy my weapon is protected from the enemy.
If it is ruled the other way ( which is the way it will be ruled) I will reject the weapon/jail analogies arguing the game of redemption works in a different manner than life itself which it does in manny aspects.
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There's no "will be ruled". It's been this way forever. Murder (Discard a human Hero with toughness */5 or less.) will discard a Helez with Helmet of Brass. Or, from the REG:
"Cards that increase or decrease abilities of a character only target the abilities of the character (face value plus gained abilities), not the enhancements or weapons used by that character. So, a 6/6 warrior class Hero with a 3/2 weapon is discarded after the battle, but a 6/6 Hero with Elijah’s Mantle activated is not discarded after the battle in which Hunger is played."
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If it is ruled the other way ( which is the way it will be ruled) I will reject the weapon/jail analogies arguing the game of redemption works in a different manner than life itself which it does in manny aspects.
If my weapon is strong enough to BREAK (d/c) your weapon... how does that work with jail at all?
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What about other placed cards on an EC? (Wings of Calamity) Can those be targeted when the EC is in KotW? Logically it does not seem they would be available targets so I don't see why weapons would be either.
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I would say yes they are because they are not the ec themselves.
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Weapon count in battle though, you are talking away the weapon he is holding which lowers his number in battle were it really counts.
Two things:
1) You can discard Enhancements in battle separately from the character, so no, you are not lowering his numbers in battle, you are only taking away Enhancements on him.
2). The question says "in Kingdoms", so for the purposes of this question, that is the only thing that "really counts".
The general answer to this discussion is that discarding other cards placed on or held by a character historically has been different from targeting the character itself. You can discard Enhancements played on immune characters like Nero because you are not specifically targeting Nero. So I see no reason non-character cards in Kingdoms could not be targeted.
I would also suggest to Hobbit that insulting the integrity of the ruling structure is not the best way to win points for your argument.
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Weapon count in battle though, you are talking away the weapon he is holding which lowers his number in battle were it really counts.
I would also suggest to Hobbit that insulting the integrity of the ruling structure is not the best way to win points for your argument.
I just said what it is. If that is an insult to you then some things need to be changed.
Weapon count in battle though, you are talking away the weapon he is holding which lowers his number in battle were it really counts.
Two things:
1) You can discard Enhancements in battle separately from the character, so no, you are not lowering his numbers in battle, you are only taking away Enhancements on him.
Which in turn lowers the heroes numbers.
Weapon count in battle though, you are talking away the weapon he is holding which lowers his number in battle were it really counts.
You can discard Enhancements played on immune characters like Nero because you are not specifically targeting Nero. So I see no reason non-character cards in Kingdoms could not be targeted.
How many immune warrior class characters are there? Weapons you have said your self behave differently from other enhancements so you cant treat them life normal played enhancement in battle. Why because it is attached to the character. If the character is holding the weapon why is it in the line of fire? It is because it isn't a character so it's not protected, but this is what I am saying: If the character is protected and the character is holding the enhancement logically the enhancement is protected. + it affects his/her status in battle by lowering his possible stat's from the weapon. I can see how you see it but you are lumping normal enhancements with weapon class enhancements into the same catagory.
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I just said what it is. If that is an insult to you then some things need to be changed.
What you said was a slander to people who work hard and take a lot of things into consideration, for no other reason than you don't like the way some rulings have gone. It's an insult to those people (not to myself) because it's not true, and strangely, saying untrue things that reflect poorly on other people... is an insult. The only thing that needs to be changed in that case is your attitude.
Which in turn lowers the heroes numbers.
No it doesn't. The Hero's numbers are still exactly as printed on the card.
How many immune warrior class characters are there?
Completely irrelevant to the issue. The question is about how Enhancements are treated, not about whether WC characters have immunity.
Weapons you have said your self behave differently
Yes, and I enumerated the exact ways in which they behave differently. I also said that other than those special rules, they are Enhancements and therefore are treated the same in every other way. If you're going to try and tell me what I said, could you at least have the courtesy not to say only half of it?
this is what I am saying: If the character is protected and the character is holding the enhancement logically the enhancement is protected.
In every other scenario, I repeat, EVERY OTHER SCENARIO where characters are protected, Enhancements are not protected. So it's incumbent upon you to tell me why weapons in Kingdoms are protected, even though weapons in all other cases are NOT protected and even though other Enhancements in Kingdoms are NOT protected.
I can see how you see it but you are lumping normal enhancements with weapon class enhancements into the same catagory.
Uh, yeah. Enhancements.
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Weapon class enhancements are diffirent from normal enhancements whether the non weapon class enhancements are discard if the character is protected from effect is irrelevent
"Yes, and I enumerated the exact ways in which they behave differently"
In which you said "characters hold weapons in territory" ( Bryon could have said that instead of you though I am not sure) if they hold the weapons in territory it is only reasonable to expect them to be protected in territory when the character is protected , after all he is holding on to the weapon. It makes perfect sense.
Your saying that a character who is protected from effect doesn't protect his own enhancements in any other situation (first off you are comparing weapon class enhancements with regular enhancements as if they have the same traits in the situation which they do not. The character is not holding to his other enhancements so naturally they are discarded .Second EVERY other situation that invloves this controversy results in the field of battle not in territory this is the only situation that can result in territory currently, it isn't fair to say territory is equal to the field of battle. This is if you say the hero is not holding on to the weapon in battle)
If there isn't a warrior class character who is immune to someone it matters because that means that every other in which you claim the enhancement gets discarded situation is actually a different situation.
Can I discard Wings of Calamity on a demon in KOTW even though the demon is protected? Either WIngs can be discarded or Weapons in kingdom can be it cannot be both ways.
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In which you said "characters hold weapons in territory" ( Bryon could have said that instead of you though I am not sure) if they hold the weapons in territory it is only reasonable to expect them to be protected in territory when the character is protected , after all he is holding on to the weapon. It makes perfect sense.
All that means is that the Enhancement is not discarded. What is the reason to suppose protection extends to that card? It never extends to any other card, so why that one?
first off you are comparing weapon class enhancements with regular enhancements as if they have the same traits in the situation which they do not.
You haven't given a reason that they do not. I said the exact things that are special about weapons, and none of those things say anything about protecting cards. Therefore, they are treated by normal Enhancement rules.
Second EVERY other situation that invloves this controversy results in the field of battle not in territory
Placed cards.
If there isn't a warrior class character who is immune to someone it matters because that means that every other in which you claim the enhancement gets discarded situation is actually a different situation.
No it does not matter. Warrior class has nothing to do with protection. Protection has always applied ONLY to the cards specifically targeted for effect, and you have ALWAYS been allowed to target ALL OTHER CARDS. You have not explained in any way how this is a different situation.
Can I discard Wings of Calamity on a demon in KOTW even though the demon is protected? Either WIngs can be discarded or Weapons in kingdom can be it cannot be both ways.
Well, since I already said in this thread - just a couple posts ago, in fact - that you can discard non-character cards in Kingdoms, which directly answers the question Justin already asked about Wings of Calamity, I guess you already have your answer.
Also, just by asking this question, you are immediately disproving your own point that "every other" scenario is in the Field of Battle. How can you accuse the people who pass down rulings of deliberately ignoring logic, and then contradict yourself in two paragraphs of the same post?
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If there isn't a warrior class character who is immune to someone it matters because that means that every other in which you claim the enhancement gets discarded situation is actually a different situation.
Abeizer (sp?) is immune to crimson AND is WC. You may move on now. I fail to see he immune characters even FIT into this conversation, unless a card is immune in territory it makes very little difference.
Hobbit not to sound mean but listen, just once.
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no they don't
If it is ruled the other way ( which is the way it will be ruled)
See what I mean? :-\
Seriously, I wasn't hurting the integrity of the playtester at all, for some reason you have an urge to make some ruling discussions a series of personal attacks of which it is not when you are being questioned. Ask me for clarification before you assume the worst next time. Thanks.
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Here's a better idea. Next time don't say that the ruling authority (which btw is Rob only, the playtesters merely assist in brainstorming and passing down the decision) just decides to use whatever logic he/she/they feel like using.