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Author Topic: Kindness + Stalx of Flax  (Read 1374 times)

Offline Noah

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Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« on: September 11, 2015, 12:25:13 PM »
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If I place Kindness on an O.T. hero who is then exchanged to my opponent's territory via Stalks of Flax,

1) Who chooses what brigade the character is immune to?

2) Who's upkeep does Kindness trigger in?

3) Will my Nicanor trigger ("If an opponent draws because of his special ability")?

4) Will my RBD trigger ("All cards that an opponent draws because of a special ability used by that opponent")?

Kindness - Place on your clay or gold Hero: During your upkeep, choose an evil brigade and each player must draw 1. Hero is immune to the chosen brigade this turn.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 12:32:43 PM »
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Quote from: tripleplayNo3 on September 11, 2015, 12:25:13 PM
If I place Kindness on an O.T. hero who is then exchanged to my opponent's territory via Stalks of Flax,

1) Who chooses what brigade the character is immune to?

2) Who's upkeep does Kindness trigger in?

3) Will my Nicanor trigger ("If an opponent draws because of his special ability")?

4) Will my RBD trigger ("All cards that an opponent draws because of a special ability used by that opponent")?

Kindness - Place on your clay or gold Hero: During your upkeep, choose an evil brigade and each player must draw 1. Hero is immune to the chosen brigade this turn.

1) Yours
2) Yours
3) No
4) No

Placed cards have always been ruled to remain in the control of the player who placed them, regardless of the territory/location they are in.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 02:11:58 PM »
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+1
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2015, 02:38:45 PM »
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No repercussions of the Kindness'd hero no longer being your hero, since your opponent has control?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2015, 02:47:04 PM »
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Quote from: RedemptionAggie on September 11, 2015, 02:38:45 PM
No repercussions of the Kindness'd hero no longer being your hero, since your opponent has control?

I believe your asking if the criteria for Kindness is still being met?

Since it says to "place it on your Hero:" my understanding is that everything prior to the colon has to be true in order to gain the effects after the colon.

If "your Hero" means that you both own and control the Hero then I don't think that requirement is being met.

Unless I've missed something or something changed about the way we treat these conditions, I'm not sure why Kindness still works. Both of the Alstad brothers are very reliable though so I assume there's something I'm not seeing.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2015, 03:17:33 PM »
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Yes.  However, actually looking it up, I see this:

Quote from: REG>Place>Clarifications
A colon ( : ) following a place ability is interpreted as: "while this card remains placed in it's original location."

I believe the argument is it hasn't been moved from it's original location, even if the original location isn't a valid target anymore.  Is that consistent with how it's been ruled for conversion and changing/losing brigades?
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2015, 03:23:10 PM »
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Quote from: RedemptionAggie on September 11, 2015, 03:17:33 PM
Yes.  However, actually looking it up, I see this:

Quote from: REG>Place>Clarifications
A colon ( : ) following a place ability is interpreted as: "while this card remains placed in it's original location."

I believe the argument is it hasn't been moved from it's original location, even if the original location isn't a valid target anymore.  Is that consistent with how it's been ruled for conversion and changing/losing brigades?

That is the interpretation I have always assumed, though I have also heard some people espouse Gabe's interpretation. I just haven't seen any rule back that up.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2015, 04:01:13 PM »
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I'm going off of this ruling, which is admittedly old and there might be something more current. In that thread the conclusion was that if a Hero ceased to be a Hero then Destructive Sin (although it remained placed) would not carry out it's "while placed" effect.

If we carry that logic through to a card like Kindness that says "Place on your clay or gold Hero" and the Hero is later converted (whether to an Evil Character or to a good brigade other than clay or gold), then I would expect that Kindness would no longer give it's effect.

But that ruling is approaching 6 years old and about a place card that was written prior to our use of the colon, back when placed cards weren't discarded from captured characters, so as you can see a number of things have changed and this might be another one of them. It so rarely comes up that I've just continued to assume that's how it's played.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2015, 04:32:53 PM »
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Sounds to me like it depends on how specific you want to get with what you define as original location. The original location can be but not limited to, your character, the hero, or your hero. I would say that the original location is the most specific, your hero. Since Kindness is no longer on your hero when switched it won't work.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 04:40:51 PM by TheHobbit »
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2015, 10:43:17 PM »
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Gabe's ruling is the correct one per the REG as far as I can see, and with how it has been ruled where I have seen it happen.  The REG was quoted previously (and that section has been in there since before 3.0.0), and basically that says that Kindness reads: "Place on your clay or gold Hero. While placed on your clay or gold Hero: During your upkeep, choose an evil brigade and each player must draw 1. Hero is immune to the chosen brigade this turn."

Kindness will not go off because it is not placed in that original location, which would require ownership and control of the Hero by the controller of Kindness.  While "your" Hero does not have it placed, it does not work.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Kindness + Stalx of Flax
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2015, 08:15:04 PM »
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Quote from: Redoubter on September 11, 2015, 10:43:17 PM
Gabe's ruling is the correct one per the REG as far as I can see, and with how it has been ruled where I have seen it happen.  The REG was quoted previously (and that section has been in there since before 3.0.0), and basically that says that Kindness reads: "Place on your clay or gold Hero. While placed on your clay or gold Hero: During your upkeep, choose an evil brigade and each player must draw 1. Hero is immune to the chosen brigade this turn."

Kindness will not go off because it is not placed in that original location, which would require ownership and control of the Hero by the controller of Kindness.  While "your" Hero does not have it placed, it does not work.

That's fine; personally I think it's a needless distinction, but I also don't mind it being the ruling (as much as I hate being wrong).
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